Moral Cowardice WARNING: DEEPLY DISTURBING AND OFFENSIVE.

I am continuously amazed at the arrogance, callousness, and unremitting self-centeredness of many of those that nature has seen fit to make members of the same species as I.

For all of you have accused we ‘outraged ones’ of being Philistines and hypocrites, proclaiming that ‘it was just a cat’ - your basis for these remarks seems to be some supposed superiority you, as a human, have over ‘mere animals’, yet with each post you reveal how lacking you are in those few qualities where humans might claim some such ‘superiority’.

Surely one of the qualities that distinguishes ‘man’ from other animals is the ability to feel compassion for, and show mercy to, those weaker beings who are totally within our power. Is this not the source for the word humane? Yet your posts to this thread demonstrate that you not only lack this ability, but are unable to comprehend that others do have it.

No, we want you to start by regarding this person as an **ex-**friend.

That you could provide moral support and friendship to someone who is capable of the cold-blooded torture of a creature - whatever its level of sentience - that’s fully capable of feeling the extremes of pain, is morally appalling. I hope those who have heretofore been your friends and companions recognize you for the moral leper you are, and proceed to have nothing to do with you for the next couple of decades.

What I’d like to see done to those who engaged in said torture isn’t very printable. Suffice it to say that such deliberate and cold-blooded torture of one of the higher animals should warrant a few years in prison, IMO; if they’d done the same to a human being, of course, they’d be on their way to a lethal injection.

Well, I realize my posts go largely unnoticed in such active threads as these, but if you’ll notice I never claimed human superiority. In fact I was one of those arguing against this “human sentience” defense. I’m not saying it’s “just a cat”. In this case, PLD was implying that not his cat was in no way as reckless and “immoral” as these perpetrators, I was merely providing a counterexample.

With your statement about our “unique” capacity for compassion and sympathy for weaker beings, I might ask about various encounters with other animals, such as the gorilla who saved the boy who fell into the gorilla pit at the zoo, or the eerily human compassion koko (the signing gorilla) showed towards his “pet” kitten (I believe its name was ‘all-ball’).

I’m by no means excusing what these people did or saying they should be free to roam our streets. What I’m saying is that its not by any means scientifically sound to say that humans have a unique capacity for, well, anything. We may demonstrate this capacity in greater magnitutde, but that’s doesn’t make us special.

Whoa there. Who are you to tell a person who they can or can’t reach out to? To take a Christian stance (IANAC, but they have some good ideas too), we should not turn our backs on anyone, especially when they’re as fucked up as this guy. I mean, these guys aren’t going to get the death penalty for this, you have to accept that. So who do you want roaming the streets in a few years: 1) A severely deranged person on whom the entire world has turned their backs and therefore has even more hatred boiling inside him or 2) A severely deranged person with at least some minor connection to the real world.

I’m not saying being friends with serial killers is gonna change them, but it’s not going to make them any worse.

Oh, so the manner in which we die doesn’t matter? Gee, I guess Josef Mengele was just doing legitimate medical research after all. Why in the world did we ever get involved in that silly old war? I mean, all of those children would have died of old age eventually anyway. :rolleyes: ****

****Note to Moderators: I do not intend, with this statement, to imply that anyone involved in this thread or even associated with this message board is a Nazi. I feel that the comparison in this case is valid; however, if you are unhappy with this statement, feel free to delete this post and I will search for another, less controversial comparison.

:eek:
That is one of the most callous, insensitive statements I have ever read.

Welcome to the big bad world.

Look, I’m not trying to say that animal torture is good. I’m taking the case of the artist, and a possible explanation of his thoughts, or what he is trying to provoke us to think about.

I’m also trying to illustrate the favoritism you have for cats and dogs, yet you could care less about mice, spiders, snakes and all the other harmless animals that you kill on sight. [sub] Most snakes (aside from say, a red spitting cobra in Kenya) are non-agressive and will run away from humans.[/sub] They are all animals, they all have a right to live. It’s just that you like one over another. I’m not a believer in making special cases because our culture sees one animal as more noble than another.

I don’t care for most Western European art, as thought of in the traditional sense. It doesn’t make it not art. No one is forcing you to see it.

Anyone see that painting that stirred up a big contreversy in NYC about a year ago where the artist defecated on a picture of the virgin mary? (I didn’t) That was art, and defended by artists and museums almost unanimously. Art is not for you or I to define - it is the artist’s expression and that should be respected; whether you like his expression doesn’t matter - no one is forcing you to see it.

ARGH!

The artist, from Africa, I believe, a devote Catholic used ELEPHANT DUNG as a medium-as a paint, in his portrait of the Virgin Mary, because where he came from, it was often used. He did NOT defecate on a picture of the Virgin. If he did, I’d say that’s pretty lame (and disgusting…ew, shit!), but come on!

This guy deliberately caused pain to some poor innocent creature. And you know what? I’d feel the same way if he did it to a HUMAN BEING.

I’m sorry, Kaje, I guess I haven’t had enough sleep - I do understand the point you were making. Looking back, I realize that I meant to reply to sethdallop’s implication that it was appropriate to excuse the behavior of those ‘superior’ cat torturers by comparing it to the ‘moral’ behavior of those supposedly non-sentient, inferior, insignificant animals. I got the posts mixed up and used yours by mistake. :o

I think we will find ourselves in at least partial agreement on these matters. However, a civilized, in-depth discussion would probably be more productive in the Great Debates Forum. Do you mind postponing it until I’m through venting my disgust and frustration in this thread? I still have this vague hope that I might actually poke a tiny chink in this brick wall of pigheaded, prejudiced, arrogance.

Absolutely. I believe I made that point earlier in this thread.

There is a great deal of difference between between the fact of torturing a cat being morally indefensible and cruel, and determining what is and isn’t art. The moral status of an act which is part of the creation of art should have no bearing on whether the art ** is ** or ** is not ** art.

Again, art is a simple thing: something created for the purposes of evoking a feeling or an idea. Period. The thing created can be film, song, music, painting, sculpture, performance or poetry or something else altogether. The only one who can say whether it is or is not art is the person who made it.

Now, as to whether the art is good art or ** bad ** art, that is another kettle of fish entirely. I haven’t seen the video in question and probably never will, so i can’t say. The description leads me to conclude that it is probably bad art.

Then there is the question of what acts may have occured in the creation of the art. Normally, these acts are benign or even positive. In this case, the act which was central to the creation of the art was horrendous. But, it could be argued that the very horrendousness of it is what contributes to it’s artistic merit. Art is not required to be beautiful or easy, and the best art often isn’t…

Finally, there is the question of whether acts performed in the making of this could-be-good-could-be-bad art are even legal, and in this case, they are not.

While it is certainly understandable, it is not really intellectually defensible to declare that art which offends must not therefore be art. To accept that such is the case would render much of the greatest art the world has ever known meaningless.
stoid

Actually, it is intellectually indefensible to assert that the arist decides what is art. To assert such means that everything is art, which of course makes art meaningless. More to the point, art is contextual, so the artist can not have the sole authority to decide what is or is not art. Placed in context, ethics and morality become part of the equation – part of separating the shit from the shinola as far as art and attempted art goes. In this case, the artist is so far beyond the pale that the claim by the artist that it is art is not supportable.

Does offence necessarily mean that something is not art? Of course not, but that does not mean that any action no matter how cruel can be held out to be art simply because the perpatrator asserts such. Where the line is between art and atrocity is not clear, but in the case at hand, there was atrocity without art.

Interestingly,. as i was writing my post, I momentarily considered delving into the idea that there is art in everything, then decided it would get too complex.

But since you brought it up, I have to disagree with you completely. You are saying, it appears, that for art to exist (or have meaning), it must be rare. Why? Why can’t there be art in everything, if we choose to see it that way? How does it remove meaning? I think it increases meaning to see the art in our creations.

But back to my definition of art, which is something created to provoke a feeling or an idea. Do you agree with that? If not, what is your definition?

And how can you possibly defend the idea that anyone other than the artist can decide what art is or is not? If I make a painting, I cannot call it art until you or someone else tells me it’s alright for me to do so? I think not, and I think not very strongly. My core reaction is basically “How dare you presume to tell me that anyone but me determines whether I have created art or not?” That is arrogance of the highest order. It’s like telling me that you or someone else has to sign off on what I think and feel!

This art is abhorant to most people. That does not mean it isn’t art.

stoid

PS: Believe me, i understand the temptation to reject that the artist decides what art is. Hell, sometimes I’d like to reject the judgment of galleries and museums. I will never forget a visit to an art museum in downtown LA that left me breathless with shock at what people considered art. It included a display of what was, for all intents and purposes, the messy living room of an obsessive smoker, drinker and note taker . Scribbles on paper scattered around, dirty ashtrays, empty beercans, and a dirty old couch. In a museum. But hey…if they artist says it’s art, it’s art. I just think it’s ridiculous sucky art.

Well, I have to say I’m . . . less than comforted that you don’t see any moral difference between a lion taking down a gazelle, a bowhunter taking down a buck, and an artist skinning a cat for no apparent reason. It’s enough to make me call into question your overall moral fitness, but that’s a subject for another thread.

See, I’m not interested in how lions treat gazelles. That’s how nature works. I find it hard to get worked up about a hunter cleanly taking down his prey and dressing and eating it. Nothing wrong there. I am, however, concerned with the unnecessary infliction of intentional suffering by humans on other humans and on nonhuman animals. It diminishes us as people to turn a blind eye to it.

If we don’t get outraged about this case, why get outraged about any case of animal abuse? And if we aren’t going to get outraged about any cases, why not do away with all animal cruelty laws? Why not let people abuse and torture animals however they want, whenever they want? Do you want to live in a world that encourages or tacitly accepts sociopathy? I don’t.

You say that, but there is a case nearly every single day where someone tortures some animal or group of animals for no good reason. Every day. Within the last month they’ve included a group of teenagers driving around and shooting dogs right in people’s yards, several cases of dogs and cats being lit on fire, kittens being tortured, beaten and mutilated, and so on. It happens every day. That bucket is way too small, and fills up in far too few drops, for my tastes.

First of all, I acknowledged in my original post, 4 pages ago, that there’s a legitimate political point to be made in calling attention to our cultural difference in how we treat animals – that we’ll become outraged over Koreans in the United States or in Korea killing and eating dogs, but think nothing of our steak dinners. I’ve called attention to that point many times myself.

What I stressed was that there are a million and one other ways to make that point that do not involve the willful and purposeful torture and killing of a living thing. And I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that anything that involves the willful and wanton destruction of a life can be legitimately classified as “art.” Art doesn’t have to be beautiful (hell, the artwork of H. Bosch is often terrifying), but it should not be callously destructive.

Um, you are.

I think that in ten years of cat ownership, with three cats, I would have noticed at least once, thanks. Despite what you may think, I am neither blind nor stupid.

Really? Gee, I thought that package labelled “Tuna in Sauce” was full of Tofu. :rolleyes: The fact that domesticated cats are well-fed does not negate their natural urge to hunt. Perhaps I could have phrased it better, but the point still stands. They see a mouse/spider/whatever, they think “food,” whether they’re hungry or not.

Why, because spiders aren’t cute?
[/QUOTE]

Um, no, doofus, because cats are carnivores. That’s what they do. Am I supposed to tell my cat, “Don’t snack between meals? Don’t eat little Charlotte, there? Don’t pursue your instincts?” Get real, here. You’re so desperately looking for a route to call someone a hypocrite that you’re really flailing here.

For another reason, because arachnids and insects are sufficiently removed from mammals in the order of things that it’s highly questionable whether they are even capable of feeling anything remotely like pain.

Let’s make things clear, here, because you really are making a fool out of yourself. If I had, as a pet, a snake, I would feed it mice on a regular basis. If I had, as a pet, a giant, “Arachnophobia”-sized spider, and it ate cats, I wouldn’t stop it. You really don’t seem to understand the moral objections people have to other people uselessly torturing animals.

Why? Because you say so? Are you some person in authority of whom I was previously unaware? It is precisely my moral obection towards the unnecessary killing of animals by people, and their treatment pursuant to their slaughter, that contributed towards my becoming a vegetarian 10 years ago. And I’m an equal opportunity vegetarian-- id on’t eat the cute animals OR the ugly ones.

“Why? Because you say so? Are you some person in authority of whom I was previously unaware?”

“Why? Because you say so? Are you some person in authority of whom I was previously unaware?”

If “saving the animals” includes all animals, then I’m with you. Discriminating against some animals in expense of the cute ones is stupid.

Re: sociopathy. This is the great society that classifies 1 out of 10 people as mentally ill. 1 out of 10 african-american males are in jail (in the US). Yeah, we really have some problems with our puritanical definitions of right and wrong.

While I’m no animal expert, and maybe someone can chime in, but when I’m stuffed from a meal, I don’t go looking for more food. And, it has been proven that a cat’s personality changes when not in sight of its’ owner (don’t have cite, will try to find).

“Why? Because you say so? Are you some person in authority of whom I was previously unaware?”

Well good for you. Everytime you put on your leather sneakers or sit on your leather seats remember you are wearing cow skin. Ever have Jell-O? Horse hooves. My point is we eat animals. We use animals. We mistreat animals. That’s human nature. Again, IMHO it’s not a good activity, but there are a hell of a lot of other problems with the world that are much more important than one little kitty feeling some pain.

seth, you ignorant slut.
I had a cat who stuffed herself every chance she got and STILL went down to our basement and killed mice! It’s what cats do. It’s instinct. Jesus, I’ve had cats all my life. Same with my mother. She’ll tell you the same thing.

It doesn’t bother you the least that these people get their thrills from watching others suffer? No, check that-from CAUSING others to suffer, for no other reason, than just for the sake of watching them suffer?

(sorry if this goes twice-computer goof up!)

seth, you silly, foolish child, I am quite finished with you. Even aside from your freakish, indefensible all-or-nothing stance – “If you’ve ever eaten a single Chicken McNugget, you cannot be upset when a group of teesn drive around shotting housepets! If you’re not a vegan, you cannot be outraged when someone wraps a dog in duct tape and lights it on fire!” – your apoplectic fit in your last post shows quite clearly that you are not interested in having a dialogue, but in disagreeing and being antagonistic for their own sake.

Also, if you’re going to go around making – wait for it – unfounded speculation based on information to which you are not privy, you’re not going to emjoy the Straight Dope much. Of course I don’t eat gelatin, you twit. This, of course, means I don’t get to eat a lot of things that I like; Rocky Road ice cream, Pop-Tarts, and all sorts of sugary goodness. Of course I do not own any leather furniture or clothing. When we approach the world from the standpoint that everyone but one’s self is an idiot, we stand to be embarrassed on a regular basis. Don’t worry, though, you’ll get over it.

What young black men being in prison has to do with animal cruelty, I must admit to being ignorant of. Perhaps in some future thread you can enlighten us all. Dismissing animal cruelty laws as “Puritanical,” and classifying the torture of animals under the rubric of normal, natural use of animals, again calls your entire moral view into question, but luckily it is you and not I who has to labor under it.

And I’m quite done with you, too. Your draconian response to art is far too much. You get so stuck on the damn cat it’s amazing. Should everyone go skin their cat alive? No. But it’s done. It’s art. We shouldn’t put him in jail forever. It’s not that bad. The sun will come up tomorrow. It’s not that damn important.

I guess that you can go to sleep tonight (watch out, you might kill a dust mite!) knowing that you’ve done your little part - after all, you calling me ignorant is absolute and final. I mean, who could argue with you? I don’t know that I’ll ever recover. Being called ignorant by a animal rights freak – amazing. Go impose your will on someone who cares.

I still don’t even believe that the tape exists, a la Chas. It sounds too hoaxy for me anyway.

And don’t threaten me about making friends on the Board; I’ve made plenty. This is the Pit - where you should stay to vent all of your frustrations with this evil, crazy mixed up world, wondering why people like me screw up your little Utopia.

Just as a matter of passing interest… I read a cover story in Newsweek a few weeks ago that was at that time already months old (I’m so behind in my reading, you have no idea). Anyway, it was all about the beef industry, and how complex and impossible it would be for us to ever eliminate dead cows from our lives. If I recall correctly, the article made the assertion that removing all traces of dead cow from our daily lives would completely devastate our existences in ways we would never imagine. Dead cow parts are used in thousands of things we use every day that we would never guess have dead cow components, things like medicines, solvents, cleaners, equipment… I just looked for the magazine and couldn’t find it. But it was interesting…

stoid

If urging prosecution of someone who skins a live cat on video is “draconian”, I’d be interested in hearing an example of something you would consider unacceptable as art. What if they skinned two cats? Ten? Would that still be OK? How about if they skinned a representative species from each of the major phyla? Would it be acceptable to take the last individual of an endangered species and kill it on camera, just to make a point about extinction? Where would you propose the line be drawn?

Stoid:

Concerning my definition of art, my first inclination would be to start with a base such as the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others. This, however, does not address the issue of found art. Some folks put forward that the act of identifying and presenting found art turns non-art into art. Thus we come to the business of anything an artist says is art supposedly being art, and since anyone can consider one’s self an artist, we come to the absurd position of everything being art. “That grain of sand at the bottom of the sea in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? It must be art because I am an artist and I say it is art. Same goes for that fine artistic creation of mine which gets flushed every morning. I’m an artist, so it must be art.” Sorry, but I don’t buy into this school. I believe that there are people who are trying to expand the concept of art to include that which has not been previously considered art, and in many instances they have had success. This is a far cry from establishing that everything is art.

There are others, such as myself, who take a contextual approach. For example, when you say that art is something which is created to provoke a feeling or an idea, you are putting forth a contextual approach, for the audience cannot but help synthesize the impressions from the art with their existing views. My position is more along the lines of reader response, where the art is created as a result of the bringing together of both the artist’s work and the audience’s background. Thus without context, there is no art. This is why many works accepted as art within the art world are not considered to be art by those outside of the art world, for those on the outside may not have the background to provide enough of a context to permit a meaningful experience. In this sense, a work may be art for one person, but may not be art for another person simply due to a lack of context. As you can see, with my approach a lack of context negates the creation of art between the artist and the audience. An object, environment or experience can exist and not be art, but upon sufficient context, can then become art. The artist can not unilaterally claim to have created art. All the artist can claim is that the artist has created a work, and wait to see if art is created out of the interaction with the audience.

I am also quite comfortable in stating that there are negative boundaries which define art. For example, the skinned cat would fit within both your definition and my definition of art up to this point. I believe, however, that a positive definition is not sufficient. You say that art is something which is created to provoke a feeling or an idea, but I can carry that to an absurd extreme by wandering about shooting people in the guts. It would provoke feelings and ideas. Would it be art? No. It would be an atrocity of no artistic merit what so ever. I believe that just as art requires a context, part of that context must be a consideration of societal mores. It is one thing to test the limits of what society considers acceptable, and to try to expand those limits. This is central to the world of art in recent times. However, there are actions which are so far beyond the pale of societal acceptance that they entirely fail to be art. Mass slaughters in ancient Rome’s fora and mass guillotining in early republican France may once have provided popular spectacles, but if either were to happen in our society today, they would not be art, for despite clearly meeting all the positive definitions of art you and I have put forward, they are simply too far outside of our society’s contextualization of art. Times change, so what may be art in some societies may not be art in others.

Let’s try a mind experiment. Let’s say you are the director of a gallery, sitting at a long table with your entire family. The performance artist arrives, decrees that everything that evening will be art, then tells some nasty mother-in-law jokes, and asks you, “Is it art?” It easily fits the positive definitions we have put forth, so you say “Yes, it is art.” The performance artist then spits on your mother-in-law, and asks you if it is art. It fits all the positive definitions (and is probably a good thing in general anyway :wink: ), so you say, “Yes, it is art.” Then the performance artist breaks the old dear’s arm, and asks you if it is art. You say, “Yes, it is art, because it meets all the positive definitions,” but you also say that, “It is both morally and legally wrong.” The performance artist then breaks her neck, leaving her permanently a quadriplegic. Once again, you are asked if it is art. What do you reply? The performance artist continues moving up the table, either maiming or killing each and every member of your family, and each time he asks you, “Is it art.” And each time it fits the positive definitions of art. At what point do you say, “No. It is not art.” Think this through. Imagine that it really is your family up there, and this is actually happening. In all honesty, could you keep saying “Yes, it is art,” or at some point would you say, “No, it is not art. It is an atrocity and nothing more.” Or would you continue to say “Yes, it is art because you are the performance artist and you have decreed that it is art.”

Or worse yet, try another mind experiment. I expect you are familiar with the artist Dolcett. Some will look at the illustrated stories and laugh, some will be turned on, and I expect most will be thoroughly revolted. But as long as the illustrated stories remain only that, a claim for art may be made in some quarters. Now imagine that rather than fiction, the illustrated stories are performance art, and you and your family are participants. Surely you can not seriously contend that such activity could be considered art?

By now I expect that most would agree with me that not everything is art, and that some activities are so beyond the pale that they can not be considered to be art, despite meeting all of the positive definitions of art. In short, art is also negatively defined by what is not art.

I believe that at the very least, when the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences directly and deliberately causes real, significant and non-consensual pain and death, then it is not art. How broad this negative aspect of the definition of art may be is just as subject to testing as the positive definitions. If a person were skinned alive, it would not be art. Now how about a cat? From my context, which includes a world view which places significant value on animals, there is no art, for the action is beyond the pale. For others who hold animals in less regard, perhaps the action falls close enough to the existing contextual envelope that art is created.

From my definition of art, which includes both positive and negative qualifiers, the skinning of the cat is not art. And I truly hope that our society never turns to accepting such acts as art.