Moral Dilemma: Doing business where an employee has old pro-Nazi tattoos.

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m in a kind of moral quandary right now, debating whether or not to continue doing business with a favorite shop of mine, based on an employee’s tattoos.

The Backstory:
I’m down in the panhandle of Florida for school. There’s a local pawn shop/gun store that I particularly like—the employees are pretty knowledgable, and it’s got a great selection. I’ve gone there with a few friends already, one of which (a classmate) has bought a pistol. I’ve bought ammunition there, and for the most part, like perusing their wares for ideas (even though I’m not buying any long guns or sidearms at this point). Admittedly, it’s fun to windowshop. The employees there are knowledgeable and friendly, and they cater to the military with frequent discounts dependent on what you’re buying. They were pretty damn good with one classmate, recommending her a few varieties of pistols as she’s a first-time buyer. It really is a great shop, and it’s kind of the only game in town [sub]or at least reasonably drivable to[/sub]. There are a handful of other shops, but one flat out failed me with this transfer, and the others just don’t have the selection or seem very interested to help.

But this week, Kimber wanted to send me a replacement .45 pistol, which I needed shipped to this gun store for the FFL transfer. They had me fill out the paperwork ahead of time and prepay the transfer fee, so that all I had to do was just swing by and pick it up when it arrived. They called me the day it arrived, and last night, I stopped by to pick it up. The gal behind the counter remembered me, and called in for my background check; after I was approved, they handed over my new replacement Custom II. :w00t:!

At the same time I was doing my thing, my classmate was being helped “down counter” by an older fellow, a 50s-ish guy who closely resembled Sam Elliot. Over the week, she was eyeing an older German gun, and at the moment, he was breaking it down and showing her the action and functions. I noticed he had a few tattoos on his arm, but didn’t think anything of it at first. When I finished, I took my case and meandered over to take a look at what she was getting. I got a closer look at his tattoos which were visible from his rolled up sleeves—they were older and faded, maybe something from his teenage years, but they were clearly pro-Nazi.

The tattoos on his knuckles were too faded and blurred to make out, but on each forearm just above the wrist had a larger tattoo: on one arm was the eagle from the German coat of arms above a swastika, and on the other forearm was another swastika surrounded by a flame-like burst from a falling meteor or something. I had a good look at them for sixty seconds or so as she was filling out the paperwork, and am damn sure of what I saw.

They sure weren’t fresh from last year; they were older tattoos. The guy was in his fifties, maybe even early sixties, and these could have been from his earlier, intemperate youth. Given that, though, they’re still there. Otherwise, there was no indication at the shop of pro-Nazi sentiments, and none of the other employees showed any evidence of the same—though this doesn’t rule anything out. How do I know? I looked around. I’ve taken/given enough antiterrorism briefs (part of my job) to know what to look for, but I just didn’t see any other evidence other than this guy’s old tattoos. I know that there’s white supremacy activity in the area, but at a general level consistent with anywhere else in the South.

That being said, I have no other evidence of this gentleman’s current political or social beliefs, and for all intents and purposes, it could have been that he’s “reformed” or adjusted his views. Perhaps he’s just an employee that is working on behalf of the owner. I doubt the guy has been to jail for a felony, otherwise he wouldn’t be working in a gun store. But based on my hatred for the pro-Nazi movement, and historical facts being what they are, I am immeasurably repulsed by these tattoos. The questions abound in my mind, but I’m not sure what to make of things. I haven’t mentioned it to my classmate or other friends just yet, but I think I may ask a select few. I just haven’t yet. So. . .

The Question:
From all other impressions and evidence, I would happily continue doing business and recommending friends to the shop. However, I possibly am doing business with an employee who espouses despicable opinions. On the flip side, though, I don’t know how strongly he feels anymore about them—one does not get tattoos lightly of heart, especially Nazi ones, but they were old tattoos. Otherwise, the man was pleasant to deal with (I’d done so before, before I noticed the tattoos). I have no idea what place he has in the store’s corporate hierarchy, nor do I know the shop’s feelings on his tattoos.

Cuttin’ to the Chase:
So, I’m at a crossroads. There’s a business I truly do enjoy doing business with, but I’m repulsed by one employee’s old tattoos. I’ll be happy to elaborate on things, but I’m interested to hear other opinions.

Tripler
Quoth my hero, Indiana Jones, ”Nazis. . . I hate these guys!”

2

Go in there wearing a Star of David shirt, or something to make him think you’re Jewish. If he continues to treat you well, assume he no longer holds those views.

3

I see no reason to stop doing business with the shop. From your description, this store seems to be your shopping Mecca. They have what you want, and are friendly to boot. You are conducting a business transaction, not going out for drinks. Even then, I don’t think it would be fair to judge this man’s character based on a few faded tattoos.

4

If they sell guns there, I’m not sure if I’d want to make that test… :wink:
If it’s possible, I’d ask the manager about that guy. I it was just a sin from the past, I guess he would have covered or removed them?

But really, nazi tattoos are unacceptable - though I’m living in germany, and I guess its even more a no-no here. I would have probably walked out of the store the moment I saw them.

5

So he’d pushed up the sleeves on his shirt? It doesn’t sound like he’s embarrassed by them. I wouldn’t keep shopping there.

6

If people stop trading with every gun store that had one or more employees who called black people “niggers” in their private, casual dinner table conversations there would be a lot fewer gun stores in business. Is a white power dunce dumb enough to tat himself more acceptable than a garden variety racist?

I think you’re going to have to trust the owner’s judgement re his employees if you want to continue to trade there. There are lots of obnoxious beliefs that people hold dear to their personal ethos that would cause them to be shunned by others if known, they’re just not stupid enough to ink it on themselves.

What if a women was a superb retail department manager but had “I like rough trade and getting gang banged” inked on her forehead . Would you not buy socks and underwear from her?

7

And by this, you raise a very good point. I’m sure some of my opinions, which while not directly pertinent to the business I may be engaging in at any moment, would horrify some to where they flee my presence. However, my opinions are not literally ‘worn out in the open’, nor do I exactly divulge most of my potential inflammatory thoughts to those of the general public.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that the owner’s judgment is in play here–i.e. he’s a valuable, knowledgable employee. That, and I’ve personally dealt with the guy before, and he’s sharp as a tack. These are particular factors that kind of redeem the guy’s service. It’s as atomicbadgerrace says, it’s not like we’re going bowling together on Thursday nights.

Maybe I’ve overreacted? I mean, I am a firebrand in defense of personal expression (which is why I would never make a scene over something like this), but man, it does kind of bother me.

Tripler
But still, it seems it’s 50/50 here.

8

Private, casual dinner conversations are different than visible tattoos in a place of business.

Honestly, I’d just ask, “Dude, what’s with the fuckin’ swastikas?” I mean, I don’t think it’s be the first time he’d been asked so you’ll likely have your answer pretty quickly.

9

A tattoo is an individual choice, not representative of the business itself. I’ve seen a few waitresses with tramp stamps, but it doesn’t mean that restaurants support the tramp stamp way of life. This guy clearly has (or had at one point) his own views, wrong as they may be, he’s entitled to them on a personal level. They aren’t indicative of the store owner, or the other employees, though.

I think that would be out of line and improper for a business transaction. The employee is merely the channel through which Tripler is exchanging money for goods with the store.

10

At the very least, he deserves a chance to explain himself.

Robert Byrd joined the KKK as a young man. In recent years, he’s considered by the Democratic party to be enough of an icon that he was worthy of election as President Pro-Tem of the Senate. I assume most readers would agree there’s ample evidence that Byrd has changed his views over the years… and fortunately for him, he (as far as we know) didn’t get any tattoos. But if he had, his conversion and repentence today would be just as sincere, and he’d be left with those remionders of views he now repudiates.

So take the bull by the horns. “Excuse me. I’m sorry to ask a personal question, but I couldn’t help noticing those tattoos. And I feel I have to ask – are these views you still hold?”

11

I say keep doing business with the store. The tattoos, being worn and faded, may very well be from, as you said “his imtemperate youth” As long as the employee himself is helpful and respectful I wouldn’t worry about it. If you did hear him say something that is pro-Nazi, that would change things, but I’d not ask him to explain himself.

I like tattoos but it’s because their so very hard to change I don’t think I’ll ever get one.

12

Let’s just say hypothecticaly the guy still is a raging bigot.

Why one earth would you let a dumbass spoil your fun? Now if the guy in question was the store owner, than that’s a different story; no need to line his pockets with money.

Things being what they are, the only person who is going to suffer by you not patronizing them anymore is you.

It’s not like Nazi-man or the owner is going to break down in tears because you don’t go there anymore.

13

Another vote for speaking quietly to the manager, to ask about the individual.

I mean, that’s where you’re going to get your bottom line truth. If you were to speak to him, and the manager indicates that he himself holds those pro-nazi views, are you going to want to continue shopping there?

14

Personally, I’d just as soon do business with Hezbollah.

15

Color me conflicted as well. While I have no issue with workplace tattoos, (I have plenty myself), Nazi tattoos are a different matter. That guy isn’t decorating himself, or marking personal moments, or even just being weird, those tattoos make a very direct statement: That at some point in his life he held those views seriously enough to permanently mark himself with that imagery. On the other hand he seems to be a knowledgeable, pleasant enough guy to deal with, and og knows that’s a rare commodity these days.

My gut says take it up with the manager. You’ll get an answer that way.

16

Earlier this week I was getting a couple of rings resized, and asked the owner about the tattoo on his hand. He’d been in the Navy, on R&R, and had been awake for 3 days. He says that he was really not in his right mind, but his buddies dragged him to a tattoo parlor, and he decided that he’d get one too. Maybe the guy in question also got the ink done while not in his right mind.

However, I think that he’d be wise to see if he can’t get them removed, or changed somehow.

17

As a strong proponent of free speech and tolerance even of the intolerant when they aren’t actually harming anyone, I’m honestly conflicted about this. At first my reaction was “stop doing business with him” but then I realized that while repulsive and reason to not socialize with him outside of a business transaction context, these tattoos really aren’t causing tangible harm. How exactly are these tattoos so bad? I’m honestly asking - I want input on this. If he doesn’t verbalize his feelings or act on them, why cut off business with the store because of one employee?

I can understand not wanting to financially “reward” someone who holds these views, and that by getting tattooed he kind of made it your business, but aside from that, how does it concern you? Is it the precedent set by Nazis towards violence? If he had an “kick kittens” tattoo, would you feel the same way?

18

It’s your prerogative to take your money to any store on the block.

I think it’s up to you. In my opinion, a person has to go through some amount of pain to get a tattoo, and anyone in his 50s or 60s would have known that a swastika had a very potent symbolic meaning, meaning that he got a tattoo put on his arm knowing full well that it would engender all sorts of negative reactions. So he was a really big asshole (IMHO) when he got the tattoo.

Now, it’s many years later and perhaps he doesn’t subscribe to the beliefs associated with swastikas. So he could (a) get the tattoos removed (a couple of thousand dollars?) or (b) hide them by wearing long sleeve shirts. He’s choosing to © not hide them, which is his prerogative. Sorry, but one of standard the conditions I place on everyone is that they not give me any reason to suspect that they think Jews should be exterminated. I’m just a little touchy about stuff like that.

19

It might not be a swastika. Could be a Buddhist Manji?

But if it bothers you, then just don’t shop there. It’s up to you. Personally, I don’t care about the prejudices/beliefs of my vendors that much. They provide a service or a product that I either like or not, that’s the bottom line for me. Unless the actually do something that offends me, I won’t care what they believe.

20

"Hey, Mr. Store Owner, I just wanted to have a talk with you. You know I love your store and recommend my friends to it and I want to do my part to make sure you succeed. I’ve dealt with Mr. X on several occasions and boy, is he sharp as a tack, he really knows his stuff and is a pleasure to deal with. However, the other day I noticed he had his sleeved rolled up and noticed some tattoos that were visible. Now, I’m pretty sure they can be passed off as the ignorance of youth, since they were obviously quite old, but in the interest of customers less familiar with your fantastic shop, it might be best to have him keep those covered. He’s such a great guy and such a wonderful asset to your business, I’d hate for anyone to think less of him or the shop because of them.

Please order me 3 more Custom II’s, one for this really cool chick I know online.

Sincerely,
Tripler"
There ya go sugar. Not all southerners are bad. :slight_smile: