First of all, freedom of speech only means the government should not pass laws to restrict it. It does not mean that you should not have to bear the consequences of hurtful or offensive statements. It also does not mean an employer is required to use their place of employment as a soapbox for your beliefs.
The Nazi imagery is offensive not because of the “precedent set by Nazis towards violence” but because of the precedent set by the Nazis towards racial intolerance and bigotry. If you want to demonstrate those beliefs, I as a Jew, will not do business with you. It would be the same as someone wearing a “Kill All Niggers” tatoo as far as I am concerned.
It’s possible, but not probable. A store manager who doesn’t give a second thought to his employee’s Nazi tattoos is a dolt. A swastika may fade but it’s meaning still burns bright, and anyone indifferent to exposing one to their customers with an “oh, that old thing?” attitude has questionable judgement at best.
I think what he’s saying is that it’s perfectly possible to get so used to something you don’t even notice it any more, if it’s there long enough. Hell, my dad’s got a tattoo on his forearm that quit registering with me long enough ago that I can’t even really tell you what it looks like in any detail. There’s an eagle, and some sort of shield under it, and I think a banner that says “Marine Corps” or something like that. Come to think of it, I’m even really sure which arm it’s on; I think it’s the right, but I’m only about 60% sure of that.
If a stimulus is constant but unimportant, you stop seeing/hearing/smelling/feeling/tasting it. Well, you still physically sense it, all the nerve impulses are running normally, but your mind just sort of edits it out. So if you’re not constantly thinking “OMG, Nazi tattoos!!!” I can see how after a long enough while you’d just sort of forget they’re even there. If they’ve been there on your arms every minute of every day for 30 years, you have to stop thinking about them sometime, so that you can eat and sleep and go to work and all that other jazz. Likewise, if you’ve known someone for a long time and they usually have long sleeves on (I assume this guy does, since the OP has never seen the ink before) and you’re busy thinking about inventory and next week’s schedule…I can understand how you wouldn’t really think much about it.
I can’t say that I necessarily approve of spending so much time around someone with Nazi tattoos that you get to that point, but if you do spend that much time with someone, it seems like the sort of thing that would eventually happen.
It’s not about spending time with the person, it’s about putting him out there as a representative of your business. It’s not an excuse to leave a portait of Hitler on the wall and then say, “oh, I forgot it was there.”
It could also mean that the owner wasn’t there that day, and the guy normally keeps his sleeves rolled down but it was an unusually hot and sticky day in Florida, so he rolled 'em up to get a little relief for a bit. You can’t leap straight to the owner having an official position on the matter without more information.
I’m going to side with the folks who favor just asking about it. Maybe the guy’s been saving his pennies for twenty years until he has enough money to have them removed professionally. Heck, maybe he rolled 'em up because she was looking at a German gun and he was trying to build rapport (probably not, but unless you ask you CAN’T know).
The input from everyone, I suppose is nice, but in the end it is really your decision as to weigh how much you want to continue shopping at the store versus how much you do not wish to do business with a store that allows nazi symbolism to exist so prominently. If you do decide to stop going there, or plan to, I would let the owner know.
Hey, listen. You get a tatoo of a swatztika, klu klux klan symbolism, “Kill whitey!” or some other offensive, inflamatory statement, the burden is on you to convince me you aren’t a fucking douchebag. It’s not on the rest of us to interpret your involvment or dedication to the cause.
Of course, if it’s the only store in town where you can get those vintage Lugers, then that’s a different story.
That’s pretty much exactly what I was saying. If the tattoos are that old, and, as others here have speculated, he doesn’t feel that way anymore, or doesn’t do anything to bring it to the fore, it’s entirely possible that the shop owner has become used to seeing the man and not the ink.
And again, the tattoos might not mean what everyone is assuming them to mean. It’s rather possible that those tats are gang tattoos and that this fellow has spent some time behind bars getting associated with the Aryan Nation or one of the other white prison gangs who are for the most part no more Nazis than a member of the BGF is an actual guerilla. If so it raises concern that anyone with an extensive enough criminal background to have spent time as a member of a prison gang might not be the best thing to have working at a business with an FFL.
To take this to an illogical conclusion though, maybe the guy used to be a terrible drunk and did a stretch back a few long years ago for drunk driving offences, hooked up with the gang while incarcerated for protection, and now is sober and has served his time and is completely reformed and that is not an active part of his life anymore. I definitely agree that he shouldn’t be showing them in the shop and if my supposition is the case that he should have them blacked out or redone as something else, but there are many assumptions to be made.
Tripler, suppose you raise this concern with the owner, and he responds, “I’m so sorry; that IS offensive. I’ll make sure he wears long sleeves.” Will that solve the problem?
I’m with the people who say you should just ask him about it, get it right from the horse’s mouth
Honestly, I think you’re trying to be too non-PC about this. On one hand, you probably dont want to associate yourself with those thin-skinned people who boycott a store for any stupid reason. I hate those people too
On the other hand, Nazis are different
Its not an intrusion and not an affront to his person if you simply ask him something that he’s showing. Whatever answer he gives you will determine whether or not you shop there again. You may not like the answer you get, which could be one reason you’re split on your next course of action
The tattoos would be reason enough for me to stop shopping at that store but you may feel differently. Someone who espouses the views that are associated with swastikas is someone who knows that their views may alienate people and are aware that sometimes that will cost them business/friends/dates/etc. and they consider that a part of the cost of having those beliefs prominantly displayed on their bodies. You may think that his beliefs don’t effect your business transactions and you would be right, but I would feel bad about myself every time I walked into the store from now on.
Sure, but you’re… what, 25, 30? It’s pretty hard for us to imagine it, but people change an awful lot between their twenties and their fifties- and tattoo removal is painful, not always an option, and really ridiculously expensive.
So, I’d been watching this thread for a few days to let ideas ferment, and it seems like the overwhelming response is “Ask!” be it the employee or the manager themselves. I’m leaning towards it, too. I am considering just calling over there to talk to the manager to get more information on it. More to follow when I do.
Part of me wants to make sure I don’t support assholes. Am I trying to be PC or non-PC? No. That hadn’t even entered into my mind. I just didn’t want to support an asshole (or a collection of them). On the other hand, though, I like this gun store. Even if there’s one asshole, I can’t see myself ‘boycotting’ the store because of one dipshit–if he turns out to be that way at all. Lord knows good businesses ought to be patronized, and I think this falls into that category.
The fact is, I usually get most of my shooting supplies and ammo online. I’d stopped by this place three times total in the five months I’ve been here, but had heard great things about it beforehand from fellow students and instructors alike. My one buddy goes in there constantly to feed his reloading habit, and he likes the store.
Side note–this weekend had a gun show in Fort Walton Beach, where I met up with the other two classmates I’d been in the store with. I’d casually asked them, “Hey, did you guys note the tats on ‘Sam Elliott’? They’re Nazi ink . . .” to which I got a cold/unknowing/indifferent response. No help from that peanut gallery.
But, to the “Lightning Round!”:
. . . because I’d dealt with the guy two or three times before, and he was always knowledgeable and pretty darn friendly. You know the type. Talks some, but doesn’t talk too much. Listens to what you’re thinking, and makes recommendations but isn’t pushy. But when you know you want cheap .45 ACP for plinkin’, he marches right over and gets it.
Absolutely! I just need your SSN, bank account numbers, current job, telephone number, and any other points of contact from Nigeria you may have.
This may be my Step #2 depending on what sort of info I get when I call. Like I mentioned, I stop in, but asking this direct a question will depend on A) what info I have previously from the manager, B) if “Sam” is in that day, and C) if his sleeves are up or down.
And yeah, I see your point. He knows they’re there, and maybe makes an effort to hide them but ‘slipped’. However, I can’t give the benefit of that doubt.
Yeah, I know.
Well, here’s a big part of it: I’m only here in town for a bit–just for school. In my travels it’s been rare to find a brick-and-mortar business who actually gives a damn, and at least makes an attempt to help you out. A lot of the gun shops either in the South or the East seem to be cliquish. But, that being, I am only here in town for a year or so, and will be moving on. This gun shop will not be a permanent fixture in my life, and frankly, I may not have the wherewithal to do a damn thing about if I find the guy is an active, practicing Hitler wanna-be. School is busy, and I can get what I want elsewhere. So, the business in my perspective is disposable, but it’s damn refreshing to find a local place. I dunno, maybe I’m putting a little too much loyalty into such a rare find.
Nope. “I’m not associating, Senator. I simply made several purchases with the company, with the employee acting on behalf of the business. We’ve had nothing but a customer/merchant relationship to this point. . .” [sub]I have this written on a card, just in case.[/sub]. Besides, I hereby promise you guys I will not have the dude over for tea. We all know the Dude abides, and Cowboy drinks sasparilla.
Well, yes and no. I think what strikes me is that it was so blatant. I’ll be honest, this is the first time I can recall I’ve had something like this burst right into my face (in a passive fashion) and it struck me. Those Internet companies, I have no idea if they’re employing KKK members or al Qaeda. I just have to assume they aren’t. And to this point, the gun store was just another place that I assumed was Nazi-free. What the guy does on his own time is his own business, and I’m not going to stop him. But to be passively ‘advertising’ such a symbol is pretty repugnant.
So, I guess it boils down to his showing the tattoo–had I never seen it, this thread wouldn’t have been written. However, now that I have seen it: if he covers it up after I call and confirm his views, I guess that’s his choice and I figure I can live with that–depending on how the manager words his response. If not, well, as I mentioned, I can always take my business elsewhere. But, I’d be somewhat dismayed that I found such a great store, which turned out to be such a crappy cubic zirconium in the rough.
You’re right, I don’t. I don’t care for those people who sometimes seem to raise hell just to make attention for themselves. But the type of group he’s representing are the archetypal model of evil. Would it be a fair comparison to say this would be like being a Yankees fan until you learn the Babe’s been throwing games for kickbacks?
Tripler
So, I just now have to figure out when I have a break in school to call. Maybe from over the holidays. . .
