ETA:**This happens often enough.
Hell, the referees have even screwed up the coin toss.
Sometimes you just have to let the call be the call and go on.
I think we should change the rules of the game to require harsher punishment for cheating.
I like the Olympic tendency to vacate medals if people were caught cheating even years after the fact. They are the only major organization that does this though I have a limited knowledge of sports organizations.
People have this cognitive dissonance about hating cheaters, yet they are reluctant for the most part to call it out and punish it. Even looking at the small sample size of the poll, so far the vote is 7/14/1, taking advantage of the situation is twice that of doing the honest thing. I really have a problem with that bizarre way of thinking.
I would hope I tell, I may not because I’m sort of a coward on this, but I would hope I do. And I’m 100% for a championship being vacated if even years down the line, we find out someone was cheating. Its not punished harshly enough now and people cheat and get caught and still get to reap the rewards from it. Its not right
I don’t see any cheating going on here, though. Cheating would be something like underinflating the footballs, where you intentionally violated the rules and intentionally avoided its discovery.
The given example is nothing but players doing their honest best to make a play work. There was no intent to do wrong - the players followed the rules to the best of their ability. It is the ref’s job to make sure no one was out of bounds, that the ball didn’t hit the ground, etc.
If I knew for a fact the catch was not good, whether I was the player or the coach, I would let the ref know. I would try to make the confession to the ref only, away from the others involved on either team, and let him decide how to handle the information. More than championships and/or monetary prizes, I value my integrity.
And yes, I have done so before when coaching youth sports.
And that, I think, is another rationale people tell themselves. Enforcing the rules should be everyone’s job, not just the refs. They’ll miss stuff, doesn’t mean it should be allowed. I actually like professional golf’s rule that you have to turn yourself in for violations.
I think when you reason that its the job for refs to catch an error, you open yourself up to reasoning that you can cheat because if you don’t get caught, well then its the refs’ fault and not yours. Cheating’s not the right word for what happens in the OP, it should be competitive balance. The ball was dropped, therefore one team isn’t better than the other if the results stand, and the losing team needs to make things right
The problem is that in football there could be penalties called on every play. The refs make judgement calls all the time and there’s no way to balance that out without players complaining or self-reporting constantly. Would you expect an OL to call a penalty on himself for holding, or a WR for pushing off? Calls go against them unfairly all the time and unless you can rely on the other team to be brutally honest as well it’s not reasonable to turn yourself in every time.
Once play I saw came closest to the scenario in the OP, and it was my team that did it. In a Red Sox game a throw came in from the outfield as a runner was trying to stretch a single into a double with two outs. Dustin Pedroia was covering 2nd base, caught the throw and tagged out the runner who was called out and everyone headed into the dugouts. But the replay showed Pedroia was holding the ball in his bare hand and tagged the runner with his glove. He knew he didn’t tag the runner but no one else on the field knew, and he didn’t say anything to correct the ump. That’s pretty borderline behavior but I’m not sure it’s his job to tell the ump.
On the other hand players have been known to slap their gloves on a close play at a base so the ump, who is looking at the foot and the base and listening for the sound of the ball hitting the glove, is fooled into calling him out. That is think isn’t borderline, that’s poor sportsmanship and is actively trying to fool the umps.
I’m curious if the argument that you have no obligation to inform the ref in this situation extends to a situation where you unintentionally committed a foul.
Do you still have no obligation to inform the ref if he doesn’t notice it? How does that conflict with your obligation to play by the rules of the game?
I agree that there was no apparent intent to do wrong in the scenario given. But just because there was no ill intent doesn’t mean that the players are excused from breaking the rules. I would hope that, regardless of when the play in question occurs or what the score is, the player would have the integrity to say, “This play wasn’t legit, and this is why.” Then the ref can decide how to proceed from there.
You don’t need to call the refs over for everything. In basketball, many charging/blocking fouls are 50/50. I don’t expect guys to go out of their way to admit that because its clearly a judgement call. However, something like the OP said where the violation is pretty cut and dry and only missed because of the ref’s view being obstructed should be something that players should admit. Again, like golf expects players to call fouls themselves, I think that’s a good idea for plays that are missed when its obvious. I’m not at all talking about things that are 50/50 or judgement calls
He violated competitive balance. Here’s where harsher penalties should apply. The out should have been taken away and/or he should be fined. If they caught it during the game, maybe in the next inning they give the other team one more out to play with, or hell, just give a free run to them. That would stop this kind of thing cold
With replay, we can fix all that. Player and team should be disciplined. Right now, if a ref misses something, there’s nothing they can do. Nothing the fans can do. Nothing the team can do. We need to start giving or taking away points for these kind of things instead of throwing our hands up in the air and saying we got fooled. Because that kind of attitude leads to situations where players are actively cheating and knowing that they only get penalized if they were caught in the middle of it. It violates fairness, competitive balance, and makes for a worse game. Its like the WWE and pro wrestling. Take out the refs with a chair shot and you can do anything you want while he’s out cold. Rules don’t matter if you don’t get caught. I just think that’s a stupid way to play a game
It depends entirely on the rules. If the rules say that it’s the refs’ job to make calls, then it’s the refs’ job to make calls.
That said, my understanding is that, in football, you have the ability to challenge a ref’s decision. And, because of that, you could argue that Team Green should. However, since you seem to indicate that Team Blue is already challenging the decision, I see no obligation on Team Green’s part.
That is, unless the refs ask you as a part of trying to see if Team Blue’s accusations are correct. However, my understanding is that this doesn’t happen. They do not involve player perceptions in their decisions.
That’s a horrific over reaction to plays like that. Stuff happens, Pedroia didn’t violate any rule, and no penalty should or could apply. The refs got it wrong, and sometimes that’s going to happen.
I don’t mind instant replay taking some of the worst umpire mistakes out of the game, but you’re creating a cure that’s worse than the disease.
It’s different in golf. The rules of golf are that you’re supposed to call yourself on fouls
In football baseball other sports it’s the officials’ job
Yes, the OP asked about moral obligation, not a sideline lawyer-like appraisal of the game rules and what you can get away with. My moral code would require me to at least request my coach to make it right. This code is what allows me to be justifiably outraged if I were on the other team, and I knew that not only did the refs make a mistake, but the other team knew it. Refs making a mistake is perfectly understandable; a sports player who goes along with the mistake, knowing the truth, is despicable.
There is no rule in golf requiring self reporting of fouls. It is tradition only that dictates a high degree of integrity to the rules.
If we do nothing, or simply admonish the refs, the punishment doesn’t even come close to equaling the crime (figure of speech, I’m not calling it a crime). Why are ref mistakes that benefits one team allowed to stand? How is that fair, that refs would blow it for the other team some time? That’s like if you shoot a guy on accident and kill him, you should not be punished because somebody might shoot you. If they blow it in an important game, should the team be ok if the ref simply gets a point on his record? If your team loses the championship because of that, would you really not call for any changes in how things work?
And honestly, what is the harm of making the punishment more severe? I don’t get this reluctance to make punishments harder. Like, you don’t want things to be fair? Where is this coming from? How is this at all making it worse if we can see later with instant replay what the actual call should have been?
[QUOTE=PSXer]
It’s different in golf. The rules of golf are that you’re supposed to call yourself on fouls
In football baseball other sports it’s the officials’ job
[/QUOTE]
But why the laser focus on whose job it is? Why does it matter it may not be someone else’s job? In your work, do you never help others because its not your job? If you see a person drowning, do you not help because you’re not a lifeguard? Or do you try to do the right thing?
Ok, here’s a scenario for you, would you be opposed to this? Lets say the leagues all pass a simple new rule: “Everyone’s job is to monitor the rules and report violations” Refs will still have the authority, of course, but its now everyone’s job, from the players to the ball boys, to report violations that the refs don’t see. Its perfect and fits into your desire to have people do their own jobs
Different sports have different rules and cultures. In football, baseball, hockey, and basketball, many of the calls are judgement calls. Part of the culture is that the flow of the game is best maintained by giving the refs the final voice on calls and working to give them the training and tools to improve and/or emphasize areas on special interest. In baseball you could implement a laser guided strike zone, with RFID sensors on players uniforms, home plate, and the balls to determine exactly whether a pitch is a strike but it would take a lot away from the culture of the game. Part of the game is the human element, where strike zones aren’t rigid. They have an ebb and flow, and as long as it’s not egregiously variable it is good for the game.
There are certain calls where baseball allows for instant replay, which started with home runs and now has a variety of challenges. But they are limited because they break the flow of the game. And to some degree they only get you so far, since often replay doesn’t provide enough information to make a definitive call. So you end up with a long delay and no change in what the ump originally called.
What punishments? If the player does something against the rules (like ARod knocking the ball out of Arroyo’s glove in the 2004 ALCS) he’s called out. That’s the punishment. If Arroyo had done something against the rules the umps would have awarded ARod the base. The punishments are already built into the system. What further actions do you want to happen? Should ARod have been ejected? The umps certainly could have done that but chose not to. Should they have awarded Boston an extra run? I’d hate to see that happen.
Football and baseball games are different than work or someone drowning. They are competition and while there certainly is a place for fair play you seem to be making it a more important than the game. IMO competition is best when players are going all out, pushing the boundaries, to win. There are limits, I don’t think anyone should be given a free pass if they set out to injure someone, but we disagree on where to set the limits.
How do you enforce this? Why wouldn’t most players simply say “I didn’t see anything on that play” when it is to their benefit? And in games like football as it is played today you’d have penalties on every play. Every DL would claim they were held, every OL would deny it. Every WR would claim defensive PI, every corner would claim offensive PI. It’s just not worth it. Again, IMO, but it would ruin the enjoyment of the game.
Back in the day when I was competing, my judo sensei made it clear to me that I could protest any call that went in my favor, if I thought I saw something and the ref didn’t. In any call that went against me, I was to keep my mouth shut.
He was kind of a fanatic about things like that. For which I am grateful to him.
Regards,
Shodan
Refs/Umps are human & therefore are expected to blow x% of calls. The billion dollar leagues of NFL & MLB, with the best professional refs/umps recognized this & have implemented replay/challenges to overcome the issue.
If they blow a call, it’s not necessarily you’re responsibility to self-report. However, if asked, even if it’s the ref looking over your direction when the other team is protesting, you should answer honestly.
As I understand it, the refs/umps in the playoffs (at the pro level) are the best & are selected because they have been recognized to be below the allowable blown call percentage, so yes, a point on his record means he won’t be at the next championship & enough points means he won’t be in the league anymore.
Let me ask a related question, does the type of league (beer vs. pee-wee) change your answer?
A coach of a pee-wee league is supposed to be teaching the kids & part of that is teaching them the right thing - going out with your head high, even with a loss because you did the ‘right’ thing.
The NCAA does it all the time, although (a) usually, they only really end up punishing the athletes who are attending the school now, as they’re not going to demand that everybody on a championship team that later had to vacate the title give back the championship trophies they received, and (b) although the school does have to give back its championship trophy and remove any championship banners from its stadiums and arenas, pretty much every media outlet acts as if they won anyway.
Case in point: on ESPN’s 2015 NIT selection show, they showed a graphic of schools that had won multiple NITs, and at the top, it said, “St. John’s - 6”, but the 6 was in a different color, and at the bottom, in the same color, it said something like, “2003 title vacated” (because the school had paid Abe Keita something like $300/month in cash while he played there), but the “6 wins” includes the vacated title since, “They won, didn’t they?”
Also, as far as the IOC goes, up through 2004, if one of the runners on a relay team was disqualified after the fact for a drug violation, the rest of the team kept their medals, and the team kept its place in the final standings. The rule has since changed, so Tyson Gay’s disqualification for drug use in 2012 means the entire relay team he was on was disqualified as well and everybody who was on it had to give back their medals.
Actually, I once saw a linesman at Wimbledon get up after a point, walk to the chair umpire, tell him that the player had said an obscenity (loud enough that the linesman heard it, but not loud enough that the umpire did), and the umpire penalized the player accordingly.
Besides, don’t some leagues already have a rule like this - mainly, Little League and other Youth (fill in the name of a sport here), where the parents “report the violations” directly to the officials, usually after the game and in a loud voice?