Those are not the numbers you said you didn’t have infront of you. Go get the ones about how much of a dent biodiesel can create. I’ll suspend any belief in your argument until then.
And I said pie, not pi (and weak pi at that).
Hey, it’s not less circular than any other argument I’ve ever had with you. Besides Gooftroop supplied the numbers, and you backed me up about my point about the difference between SVOs and straight Biodiesel. Don’t let that affect your elitism none though!
Gooftroopbag Are you claiming that b100 will not run in a diesel engine? Yes or No? I am claiming it will, if you are claiming it will not, well then I suggest you go to www.biodiesel.org and educate yourself. If you agree that it will run in an umodified Diesel engine, then you will understand that you can ship it in the same trucks and put it in the same pumps as any other diesel. If you think I am saying that it doesn’t require different refineries, I have said quite the opposite as I spoke about people setting up refineries all across the country at numerous times in this thread.
When I talked about the bus that ran on SVO, I was making a point about how much fryer grease is available and has yet to be tapped. That fryer grease can be turned into B100, which any diesel engine will run on. The points made about cold weather running are of course valid. However, none of this conflicts with what I have said in that biodiesel is one of the only alternatives that is being tapped in the present, that we don’t have to wait for the future.
I am not picking a team that I want to ‘win’ the alternative energy bowl. I know it’s very un-American of me not to pick a team but there you have it. I think you dismiss biodiesel out of hand. I never once said it was a be all end all solution, but when it comes to energy sources and green house gas emissions, every little percentage point counts.
So I think your ego is wrapped up in this argument more than mine is. The facts have been presented, weigh them over in your head, read up about it if you wish, but this is the end of the argument because you have some motivation for being ‘right’ that I don’t really give a fuck about.
Erek
You misunderstood what I was saying. When this discussion began, I was talking about mixtures - because they are more common than B100. I never said there was not a difference between SVO’s and straight biodiesel. I was not talking about processing; simply what makes up the fuel.
From post #92 (highlighted for emphasis):
You replied:
and finally presented this gem:
I know in your dilusional mind, kidchamelon was supporting you, but kidchamelon was correcting you and pointing out that I should have explained the difference between B-10 and B-100 to you in the first place. Of course, while I initially referenced the Wikipedia site that kidchamelon later used, I thought the best thing to do would be to simply refer to B-100 and SVO’s as a single entity to distinguish between those and fuel mixtures such as B-10’s.
My fault for not explaining it up front, but I attempted to clarify my understanding of the discussion initially.
Yes and no. To say that all vehicles need no modification is incorrect - some do, some don’t. From YOUR source:
I never argued against this (although hybrids and electric vehicles are another step in the right direction). We’re talking about orthogonal concepts here. I see that our use of biodiesel, etc is a great step towards change, but I consider biodiesel to be a short term alternative rather than a long term solution to the problem of American petroleum dependence/consumption. That the use of biodiesel mixtures gives people the impression that change is not going to come at a cost, that pure biodiesel and SVO’s would not diminish our need for foreign sources of energy because 1) we do not have enough land to produce enough fuel and 2) we do not have enough waste vegetable oil.
I never said you had to. My own opinion is that one solution will be superior to others and that biodiesels will be one of the “others” that falls away with time. That doesn’t mean I rooting against it, because as I’ve already mentioned there is potential with algae, but that my opinion is that others will be more successful.
Because I think I am right – if I’m wrong, show me where I’m wrong and I’ll except that.
Elitism? Becuase I don’t take your fact-bare statements at face value? Because I want you to do some fucking research for once in your life to back up your own claims? Christ, it took me all of 30 seconds to do a google search and disprove three of your claims. I was hoping you’d act in a mature manner like you did earlier when I wondered about your gum wrapper comment. I wouldn’t exactly call them gum wrappers, but it was a good response to my question that backed up your claim.
Well, if you’d go to your own site you’d notice that biodiesel “can be used in compression-ignition (diesel) engines with little or no modifications”, so it may require modifications of a current engine.
But as gooftroopag has shown, even using all the cooking oil, not just fryer grease, will hardly make a dent in the US’s oil demand, and that’s taking away its current use in manufacturing soap. And I like people having access to soap. Is there enough for some people to use it? Sure. Is there enough to make a national campaign over? No.
KidChameleon Everything you said seems to agree with what I was saying. You might be having an argument with me that I’m not privy to where you are disproving all sorts of stuff you thought I said but I didn’t. In which case you probably proved me wrong and sure showed me.
The point about the soap and such is interesting, that was an angle I wasn’t aware of.
I mean there isn’t much point in discussing this with you all because you read so much more than what I say into these things. I think it’s an illusion that we’re speaking the same language, because we clearly aren’t. I never once said that Biodiesel was a be all end all solution, I said quite clearly the opposite. If this is just some big dick sizing competition, then you can swordfight by yourself. I gave cites, and thus far other than the soap thing, everything everyone has posted has jived with what I’ve said. Though it’s typical that you’d agree with me but semantically phrase it as though you said something in opposition to my views, and then make some stupid comments about how you showed me and your facts are so much better and blah blah blah ‘my intellectual penis is bigger than yours’.
Anyway, Biodiesel is in effect NOW not in the future. It doesn’t take more energy to produce than it puts out like Hydrogen, and soap can be made out of other things. The economy shifts around as the supply of resources ebbs and flows. It’s been doing that for millenia FYI. You ain’t shown me shit, but you are sure welcome to be impressed with your ego and your googling skills.
Erek
Gooftroopbag That 70 percent dominant fuel source will most likely be electricity. People will plug their cars in and charge the batteries when they are parked. That’s what I see coming down the pipe in the long term when gasoline becomes less viable. In which case the electricity will be produced by a variety of sources. When I was in High School my HS made a car that could do about 110-120 on battery power. That was High School students in 1994, so I figure that we’ll be seeing that sort of thing more often in the next few years.
Was Ms., I agree.
I would like to point out that you did say:
Both of which are not consistent with anyone else’s arguments.
Sorry - those should be “kidchameleon”
Good GOD, MAN! Are you proposing that we pluck electricity from the air and then shove it into cars? Sorry, Zero-point is waaaaay the hell off and “Maxwell’s Demon” may not work for another 50+ years with nano-tech… Where are you suggesting that we get this electricity from?
The problems with electricity are that it is not safe, it is slow to charge, and it stores poorly.
It is not safe. If you crank the amperage up high enough to charge a battery in… call it three minutes, it is lethal to anyone around it if let loose. Gasoline is merely annoying if it spills.
It is slow to charge. Generally, you can’t crank that amperage up that high. So right now, an empty car takes, what, three hours to charge up? Fine at home on a trickle charge, but a bear on long journeys.
It stores poorly. Batteries discharge and die, with a eight to ten year lifespan. They fare even more poorly if you crank the amps up enough to charge quickly.
Electric cars are not the wave of the future. Electricity in a car is, but it is simply not sufficient as a primary motivator. Why do you think hybrids exist in the first place? Remember, we’ve been trying to make a good electric car since Thomas Edison. We havn’t succeeded yet.
Nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, and fusion if we can get it going. 
Eh, close enough for me.
We’re talking about the solution that will replace gasoline. Hybrids will not replace gasoline because well, they use gasoline. The discussion was about long term solutions that will be coming down the pipe in the long term, so I’m thinking 20 years from now at least.
Gooftroopbag Well, to put it succinctly, I think that from this point forward, as long as we have diesel engines, a portion of the diesel capacity will be from biodiesel. That’s long term, or at least as long term as we have Diesel engines, which could very well become obsolete in our own lifetimes. So that’s long-term and it’s significant. Remember when I was saying significant, I was talking about small percentages, because energy policy is determined by small percentages. Can we agree that I was never arguing that biodiesel would be the majority panacea that you are talking about?
CitizenBob I never remotely suggested that the electricity would be spawned from the ether, but things like solar paint will make a big impact when it’s a viable solution, which could be in a couple years or in 15 years, who knows? When every house has an entire roof painted with solar paint, our idea of energy consumption will be quite different. I think in terms of the long term solution that replaces gasoline, electric is probably the way it’s going to go. We’re all just speculating here, as the future hasn’t happened yet and all.
Erek
Two key words: good and yet.
Now, I don’t know much about how electric vehicles are constructed, but how hard would it be to have battery exchange stations along highways for long distance driving? So you don’t recharge a single battery, just exchange battery packs - just an idea.*
*maybe a bad one, I wish I’d paid more attention in my electrical engineering courses. That’s what EE’s are for right? - to make sure I’m not going to electrocute myself!
Yes.
Exactly, and isn’t nearly every single golf cart an ELECTRIC VEHICLE? I have never seen a non-electric golf cart (of course, I’m sure some exist, I’m just a late-bloomer w/ golf). People use electric golf carts all the time. Seems like a good idea to me – and I’m surprized that the industrial people haven;t put more money into development, maybe they figure that the carts are good enough, well enough.
I think its an issue of speed. Everyone wants to be able to drive 100+ mph.
Golf carts = too slow. Unless you’re driving on a golf path, that is.
Dude, you really need to work on your reading comprehension:
Your claim: The first diesel engine ran on a combo of hemp and linseed oil
What Wiki says: Peanut Oil.
Your claim: Biodiesel can replace petrodiesel or be mixed with petrodiesel, it requires NO upgrade whatsoever to existing infrastructure.
What your cite says: Heating will be required for storage tanks. Adjustments may be needed for some engines.
Your claim:Fry oil will make a significant impact and is long term and sustainable.
Wiki and math say: It would curb usage less than 1% if all waste oil was used. And soap gets more expensive.
Because you don’t do any damn research. You snag a fact and rather than going out and finding out more facts associated with it, you make all sorts of assumptions. Chirst, we haven’t even discussed how biodiesel will go bad, unlike petrolium fuels. What ever happened to those numbers you claimed to have, just not in front of you?
No, I think its because I (and others) just read more than you. For crying out loud, this is hardly the first time that you’ve cited a website that actually disagrees with what you’re saying.
No,t hey didn’t. See above. You need to read and understand what you are referring to. You’re supposed to be some god damned expert on biodiesel but after an hour of watching Morgan Spurlock and few web sites I obviously have a better grasp than you do. And it isn’t just because I’m better at Organic Chemistry than you, it’s because I took some time to read up on these things. Look at the information, digest it, understand it. Then formulate ideas about it. Instead of just spouting something and then tossing a website here or there, pull some numbers and quotations out to back you up and then refer back to the site for the location of them.
Hell it doesn’t. Biodiesel doesn’t violate the laws of thermodynamics.
Like what?
No shit. That’s why most cooking oil waste is sold to soap manufacurers. They pay more for it.
You’re as bad as Cartooniverse.
Minor nitpick, inessential to my overall argument, I didn’t disagree with that correction, and am perfectly willing to accept it. Congratulations.
MAY be needed. I said Biodiesel can replace SOME of the Diesel we use. Again, you can still mix Biodiesel with petrodiesel. The nitpick we were making was about SVOs vs b100, something you confirmed for me.
1% in addition to algae and soy is significant. I was always talking about percentages of around 5% total. I never argued with any of the cites you gave.
I never claimed to have those numbers, not once. I was happy when you provided them, for that I thank you.
No,t hey didn’t. See above. You need to read and understand what you are referring to. You’re supposed to be some god damned expert on biodiesel but after an hour of watching Morgan Spurlock and few web sites I obviously have a better grasp than you do. And it isn’t just because I’m better at Organic Chemistry than you, it’s because I took some time to read up on these things. Look at the information, digest it, understand it. Then formulate ideas about it. Instead of just spouting something and then tossing a website here or there, pull some numbers and quotations out to back you up and then refer back to the site for the location of them.
Pumice (sp)
Actually you can get cooking oil waste for free if you go straight to the restaurants.
Why is it that you are incapable of being correct without being a dick about it? None of the things that you showed me did I argue with. You gave me some cites that I agreed wth. I never said Biodiesel would completely replace diesel totally, at least not without a reasonable algae process. You illustrated some interesting stuff, and I didn’t argue with it, but you don’t relent for some reason. What do you get out of it?
This is an internet message board, maybe my mistake is that I don’t take it as seriously as you do, and that pisses you off. I don’t know, thanks for helping me get my facts straight. But, you’re a fucking asshole, pure and simple. You can’t even be right gracefully. You’re acting like I resisted your cites or something. My point has been this whole time that every little bit counts, and that even if biodiesel doesn’t fix the problem, a few percentage points ARE significant. If anywhere in your cites you find something that refutes that part of it, I’d love to see it, because I still haven’t found it to be so.
This country is too hooked on soap anyway, at Burning Man the camp is on a big alkali flat, you can use the alkali dust to clean your body and your dishes and it does a marvelous job, and it’s FUCKING EVERYWHERE. Yet people still came over to us and asked us to borrow soap, when we explained to them that they were standing on a plane of soap they looked incredulous and went over to the next camp to look for soap.
I think your argument centered around trying to make me look like an idiot, as you seem to like to follow me around and nip at my heels, rather than actually joining the argument that Goof and I were having. The argument I was having with him was about the significance of impact of small incremental changes in what resources we use, and how much of them we use. He was saying it was insignificant, and I was saying even a few percentage points IS significant. So I appreciate you doing some research and helping me with some facts, but your intense desire to be a prick about it is just pointless, because nothing you have said went afoul of the point I was making about significance.
Something that irritates me so much about this country is that people think if they can’t solve the whole problem they might not even work on small little changes. They will quote statistics at you until the cows come home about how minor the changes are so they aren’t worth caring about, and that infuriates me. A major pet peeve of mine is people that take a plastic bag at the store for the ONE ITEM that they purchased. If every American unilaterally stopped taking a bag when they didn’t need one, we’d reduce the amount of plastic bags we use, but invariably some asshole will say that it’s no significant. However, if biodiesel reduces our oil consumption 2%, reduction of plastic usage reduces it 2%, reduction of driving a quarter mile to the 7/11 reduces it 2%, and hybrid cars reduce it 2%, then that’s 8% closer to the time when we can STOP FUCKING KILLING IRAQIS FOR IT! So I think it’s bloody significant, and that’s my point. If any of your cites can refute that I’d like to see how, because I’m not getting it. All I was saying was that I didn’t think that biodiesel was ever going to go away for as long as we are still using diesel fuel. That it’s not a short term solution as it relates to diesel fuel.
So I concede that it’ll require some adjustments to our infrastructure, but the changes are minimal compared to hydrogen power.
Erek
There are definitely gasoline golf carts. We had them on the golf course my parents owned when I was growing up. I think electric ones are more popular because they are so much quieter, and the negatives about electric power aren’t important when it comes to a golf cart.