More Atheists Than I Thought!

Great Debates
81

Jodi, as an atheist, I am sorry you were subjected to js’s appalling rant outside of the Pit.

But only because it was outside of the Pit.

Being casually disregarded by my fellow citizens for no other reason than I don’t follow some mystical belief system is still incredible to me. It’s happened for a good portion of my life, but damn, it gets tiresome. There is no good reason for “Ceremonial Deism” as it is so quaintly put, other than to put the majority ahead of the minority. “With Liberty and Justice for All” was in the Pledge of Allegience long before the obscene addition of “under God” was added.

I say obscene because it truly is marginalizing to those of us who are moral good citizens, but we could frankly not give a shit about your God.

“In God We Trust” is also obscene to me because it makes a travesty of our nation’s original motto of “E pluribus unum(sp?)” Well, maybe my Latin is a travesty too. :wink:

Your “Ceremonial Deism” (paid for with my taxes, and many other non-believers’) chips away at my freedom, and yours quite frankly. In the real world, people actually believe that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation because of these sick encroachments on the very real wall of Separation between Church and State. It wasn’t. I’ll leave it to you and others to look up the Treaty of Tripolli, the Memorial and Remonstrance, and more writings by the Founders than you can shake a stick at to see that I’m not talking out my ass.

I sincerely believe, and know from experience, that any tax-supported endorsement of religion, in any form, is a degredation of all liberty.

Some are just too stupid to understand it.

82

Yeah, that’s true. I’m mostly secretly hostile to religion, as I don’t generally participate in these threads. To me they’re all ridiculous.

83

Here’s an interesting letter written by one Gary Christenot, a devout christian who has recently converted to the anti-school prayer side of the aisle. The gist is that this devout christian decided that he no longer supports school prayer, having attended a football game in Hawaii where the prayers were conducted from the Buddhist perspective. It’s funny what being in the minority will do to your ideas about ‘just be quiet and it will all be over soon.’

Of course, he finishes by saying that he’s grateful his kids don’t go to a school with prayers so he “[don’t] have to worry about them being confronted with Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Satanic or any other prayer ritual [he] might find offensive,” but beginnings are delicate things.

Linky linky

84

I respectfully but very strongly disagree. “Ignorance” is a far too over-broad a sword. It’s like nuking the proverbial flea. It’s simply not accurate because it utterly fails to take into account all the necessary facts and realities, let alone all the nuances. Knowledge alone is quite inadequate to the task. You need the right environment, background, life experiences, skill sets, and possibly even the right ancestry to overcome religious predilections. Again, knowledge alone simply won’t cut it!

85

First of all, ignorance is something that you can exhibit in small portions or large, just like religion. You can be ignorant of a few things but not ignorant of many things.

And, I should add that religion is a KIND of ignorance, not the other way around, of course. I tried to imply that by putting religion on the left side of the equals sign.

“All the necessary facts and realities, let alone the nuances” Huh? Cite?

Being raised an evangelical in a very large evangelical community (thousands and thousands in the immediate area–multi church unity/meetings/groups + an evangelical and fully accredited university in my neighbourhood)

I had all the “wrong” environment, backgrond, life experiences, skillsets AND ancestry to overcome my “religious predilections”, however, by simply doing all the same things one would do to overcome any form of ignorance, I was able to read, talk to others more knowledgeable and unbiased, and form, as I see it, a more educated opinion of what is what, and henceforth, over about 10 years, became an athiest.

incedentally, my exit door was Calvinism. Got me thinking in the right way to find the light.

86

If RC priests ever said such a thing, they’re outright heretics and are incredibly ignorant of their own church. They simply can’t be informed Roman Catholics.

All Homo sapiens sapiens share almost exactly the same DNA and thus share almost exactly the same brain physiology. The “mind” is the product of the physiological brain. Hence, even though the environment varies considerably, only functional subtleties vary from mind to mind. Therefore your mind works like my mind. Let’s not to play freshman dorm bull-session games concerning solipsism and related ideas, agreed?

Therefore, since your mind works like my mind and the minds of psychologists, we must accept that science and religion can co-exist in a single mind only due to compartmentalization. And that believers reject science and facts and knowledge whenever they interfere with their religious beliefs and dogmas. Thus the two never truly co-exist at all in anything but the most diffuse and general sense, as I wrote earlier. In Gould’s phrase, they’re “non-overlapping magisteria”.

That is 100% consistent with what I’ve said all along. The beliefs are totally compartmentalized: dinosaurs in the “science” compartment and “God” in the “religion” compartment. They don’t overlap.

Ah, that’s one of your analytical problems. You need to read a good non-fiction book once in a while rather than TIME magazine.

87

Why are you being so massively disingenuous or even outright dishonest? By your astonishingly unjustified and off-point post, I can’t help but think that you didn’t read TimeWinder’s post or my reply with any care at all!

Didn’t you see that TimeWinder asserted flat out that no one has EVER challenged ANY public displays of faith! That’s completely and utterly FALSE and unbelievably IGNORANT, yet you foolishly defend his mindlessly ridiculous statement by denying that I told the truth! What the fuck is wrong with your thinking? Are you really that ignorant of American history and jurisprudence?

I repeat my reply to TW: “How could you not have heard of all the hundreds of times we secularists have told believers they can’t display their faith in public places? Such as with Christmas creches on public property? Such as with enormous crosses on public property? Such as with the Ten Commandments in courthouses? Sure, we have excellent legal and constitutional arguments for our views, but to deny that we’ve tried to limit public displays of faith makes you out to be a fool.”

So since you denied I told the truth, you must believe, as TW claimed, that NO ONE has EVER tried to stop Christmas creches on public property! You must believe, as TW claimed, that NO ONE has EVER tried to stop enormous crosses from being erected or maintained on public property! You must believe, as TW claimed, that NO ONE has EVER tried to remove the Ten Commandments from courthouses and other public buildings! You must believe, as TW claimed, that NO ONE has EVER tried to ban prayers and other displays of faith led by teachers in public schools! You must believe, as TW claimed, that NO ONE has EVER tried to ban public prayers at public football games! For if you don’t believe TW’s claims, you have no right or justification for attacking me for rejecting TW’s idiotic claims!

TimeWinder also implied that it’s perfectly okay to pray whenever or wherever people want, even from PA’s at public football games, even by teachers at a public school! You must agree with him since you attacked me for disputing that claim. TW also stated that it’s perfectly okay to put whatever religious symbols, writing, or anything else anywhere they want, even in public schools and public buildings! You must agree with him since you attacked me for disputing that claim. TW also insisted that it was perfectly okay and legal to “display your belief however, whenever, and in whatever form you want”, even from PA’s at public football games, even by teachers in public schools! You must agree with him since you attacked me for disputing that claim. Again, what the fuck is wrong with your thinking?

How is it possible for a thinking adult to deny that TiimeWinder’s assertions were the opposite of the truth?

88

First, That’s NOT what you said in your previous post! You strongly asserted that NO ONE has EVER tried to limit the public display of faith at any time or any place! You went on and on repeating those utterly false statements! We DID do the things you claimed we did not! You should at least admit that your previous post was poorly written and full of mistakes since it says something totally different than what you’re trying to say now.

Furthermore, your claim just above that the law is EXACTLY the same for both secular and religious displays is still completely wrong and flatly contradicts reality. Both private and public individuals can say or display purely secular things at any time and any place (excepting inciting to riot and so forth), while that is simply not true for religious statements or displays, which have strict legal limits! Your thinking is very confused and your statements are inconsistent with the truth.

But I totally stand by my earlier reply to your earlier post, which – as written – was utterly out of touch with reality and completely full of falsehoods. I suggest that in the future you try harder to insure that your words express exactly what you mean.

89

I already gave a citation when I linked to Boyer’s book. But if we’re going to play the “cite?” game, then I demand you provide a cite proving that religiosity is a result of NOTHING but ignorance! That it has NOTHING to do with evolutionary psychology and predisposition. That is has NOTHING to do with one’s environment. That is has NOTHING to do with one’s background. That is has NOTHING to do with one’s life experiences. That is has NOTHING to do with one’s intellectual tools and skill sets.

Somehow, I doubt you’ll be able to do that. To claim that religiosity is a result of NOTHING but ignorance is itself extremely ignorant!

No, you didn’t! You’re employing very crude, blunt-force reasoning here. It’s completely unjustified and wrong-headed to believe that something as crude and simplistic as merely being raised in an evangelical environment makes psychology and predisposition irrelevant or “wrong” or that it makes all the other factors I’ve listed irrelevant or “wrong”. Are you really that blind to all the vast, mind-boggling universe of intricacies, complexities, and subtleties that collide to make a person unique? Holy Bob, you must not only believe in that most absurd of notions, “free will”, but also that you can be entirely immune to the forces society and nature whenever you wish! No, my friend, you are the product of forces totally beyond your control. You are the product of quintillions of tiny, often random events that are beyond any human’s grasp or power to control. Everything is overflowing with subtleties and complexities!

Here’s the bottom line: if you take every scrap of the knowledge you believe is necessary to reject religious belief and force it into other’s minds, ONLY those with the right combination of evolutionary heritage, environment, background, life experiences, psychological tools and skill sets will actually be able to become non-theists. Knowledge alone is utterly inadequate to the task; it must find just the right vessel to flourish. I know many theists who posses ALL of that knowledge and more and yet they remain theists!

I think that’s quite unfortunate, for it dooms the vast majority of mankind to darkness. But we have to face the fact that that’s reality as it is.

90

I never ONCE said religiosity/religiousness is a result of ignorance, I said it is ignorance, more specifically a kind of ignorance.

I also did not say religiousness can be fought with knowledge. I dont know where you got that idea from.

Both ignorance and religion are results of incredible subtleties, complexities, nuances, predispositions historical context etc. Both require a complex series of events and circumstances to be overcome.

The act of disseminating knowledge is just part of the process. If there wasnt more to it, we wouldnt need schools, just libraries.

Now, when I said “cite” above, what I should have said was “What are you talking about, I do not understand this statement”. You did cite Boyer earlier, I realize that.

Therefore, I still am quite convinced that religion=ignorance. What you seem to fail to realize is that “ignorance” or the “state of ignorance” is arrived at by all the same complex nuances you seem to claim “religion” has the corner on.

91

No, most knowledgeable people define “atheism” as “the lack of belief in a god or gods.” You, my friend, are an atheist.

Like we go to an “atheist church” or something?

And by the way, welcome to our community. You should start receiving our newsletter in the next few weeks, and we look forward to seeing you each week at the atheist services. Riiiiight.

92

My mind does not work like yours. Mine is open.

93

Our Motto: “Come for the non-service; stay for the wine.”

94

In my small Southern town (population 45,000; median income $30,000), there are 12 public schools and a courthouse, where religious icons cannot be displayed by law.

There are 163 churches and 9 private schools where displays of faith are permitted, encouraged; expected.

Christians fought a very public battle to keep the Ten Commandments in our local courthouse (a huge plaque was just removed 3 years ago) and the fight continues. The plaque and paper copies are continuously posted by unknown persons and are removed so frequently it no longer makes the newspaper.

I cannot understand why Christians feel so unfairly persecuted by the laws that protect public buildings from endorsing their faith.

95

I wish like hell that my place of non-worship had evolved enough to have wine. We’re still on vodka.

Which is actually a good thing.

Less staining when it spills.

Unless you mix it with cranberry juice.

Which is viewed as non-heresy.

96

Our western town is even smaller than **Beaucarnea’s ** (about 15,000) and we still have a creche on the courthouse lawn during Advent and Christmas. I don’t mind. And I guess the reason I don’t mind is that every year our county commissioners informally ask the public if it’s OK, and every year the local atheists (myself included) keep our mouths shut, because, frankly, we don’t see a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn as a major threat to our civil liberties. The Patriot Act, on the other hand …

But yeah, I understand about the “war on Christianity” mentality. They need to understand that their “absolute truth” is nothing but a superstition to me, and I want it out of my face.

97

You really don’t understand this stuff at all, do you?

P.S. Switch to decaf.

98

You worship at the Alter of the Holy Potato

99

At last! A name for my non-worship of a non-deity!

Plus, “Altar of the Holy Potato” is fun to say.

I believe that I’ll indulge in a little consecration this very eve.

With tonic water.

The holiest of the gun waters.

Non-Amen.

100

I non-genuflect as I kiss your ring.