More Baseball Questions

The Game Room
1

Hi SD,

You guys are great. Here are my questions for the day:

  1. I understand that the catcher and the pitcher sometimes get together in the middle of an at-bat to discuss pitches. Likewise, a pitching coach can approach the pitcher and talk strategy.

My question is, what happens when an infielder comes in to talk to the pitcher? What kind of words are exchanged? It can’t be pitching advice, can it? Because why would the pitcher trust an infielder more than his catcher?

Sometimes the announcer says that an infielder is coming in to “settle down” the pitcher. Really? They’re out there for a long time sometimes…is it really one long pep talk? You would think it just adds to the pitcher’s nervousness–when people from outside have to come in to check on you, you know you’re doing a bad job. It also takes away whatever concentration you had, in my opinion. Absent any pitching advice that an infielder (!) would give, I would guess it’s one long therapy session in front of thousands of people.

  1. On a related topic, when a pitcher is doing poorly, and the manager comes out to change the pitcher (and take the ball), what kind of words are exchanged? If the manager knows the game is lost, will he lash out or berate the pitcher? I know it’s the manager’s job to keep a cool head, but I can’t help but think that managers will take the opportunity to say the equivalent of “Get out of my sight. You lost us the game.”

  2. Finally, is there ever any resentment between players because of the relative work they do on the field? I mean, pitchers and catchers work so much harder than the rest of the team. As an outfielder, you could stand out there all night and never get a ball hit to you. But then, I guess, the hardest working player must be the catcher, because they are in on most every play, and play nearly every night, while pitchers are in a rotation. If I were a catcher, I’d be upset about doing twice the work while having the same pressure other guys have to produce at the plate.

Thanks for your always enlightening responses!

Dave

2

The infielders come in so they know what pitches are going to be thrown, therefore where the batter is more likely to hit them and where they should position themselves. If the pitcher is coming out, they provide encouragement and moral support to a teammate, and have something to do other than stand there. Sometimes they talk about unrelated matters just to help a jittery pitcher relax. Outfielders have further to walk and generally stay out there.

A pitcher having a bad outing generally knows it and would not benefit from a tongue-lashing. If his mind is elsewhere and he needs a talking to, that comes in private. Managers know not to do it in public, like managers in any business.

There is probably not much resentment about differences in job requirements - each player is generally playing the position he’s best at and is doing his best at it. It isn’t like the catcher can tell the left fielder “Hey, you try it tomorrow and see for yourself, huh?”. The catcher is, as you note, the only player who is in on every pitch and every play, though - he has to know the entire game to be effective, making him a leader by necessity, and that is essentially why a highly disproportionate number of managers were former catchers.

3

Usually general advice to the pitcher. Most commonly, the infielder will be there after something bad has happened that might rattle or anger the pitcher – an error that loads the bases instead of ending the inning. The infielder will try to get the pitcher to focus on something other than the mistake and settle down and pitch without letting the problem cause the pitcher to pitch badly.

It depends on the situation, but usually the manager just says, “That’s it for today” or the equivalent. A manager who berated a pitcher when pulling him is doing a piss poor job of managing: it’s better to just say, “not today,” and let the pitcher try again. The pitcher knows the situation, and these days is usually pulled simply because there’s a better option in that situation. It’s more likely the pitcher will get angry at the manager: “Come on, I can get this guy.”

None. That’s part of the game. I’ve heard of some catchers who get very frustrated with force to play anywhere else: they like being in the center of things.

4

When you’re talking fine control a lot of it is mental/emotional. An infielder isn’t going to talk about pitching mechanics, he’s either going to distract the pitcher a little to calm him down or encourage him a little to buck him up.
Pitching is about mechanics. Pitching success is more mental.

No. First, the manager knows that pitcher is going to pitch for him again. By the time you’re a manager you’ve been involved in 162+ games a year for decades. One game (most of the time) doesn’t mean that much. It’s about the long haul. And rarely are games lost because the pitcher didn’t care, which is the only time that type of conversation is appropriate and then you’d want to do it in private. What’s the point of yelling at him on the mound?

No, they all do what they do. Position players do tend to think pitchers don’t quite have the same grind they do, and I think there’s universal acceptance that catchers have the most grueling position, but no resentment.

5

Also keep in mind that each player is expected to contribute in different ways. An excellent catcher who can throw runners out can be a marginal hitter. Same thing with a defensive wiz at shortstop. A first baseman or outfielder who can’t hit isn’t likely to be a major league starter.

6

You might consider a single omnibus baseball questions thread. All of your recent threads have the same nondescript titles so I can’t tell one from the other without reading them. And the same people are likely to be reading and answering.

Moving on, infielders can talk about positioning themselves around the diamond based on pitch selection. If you are pitching someone inside or outside can dictate where they are most likely to hit or pull the ball. You want your infield arranged in the best possible location to field grounders and/or set up a double play.

And yes, sometimes it helps to have someone come out and speak calming thoughts to a pitcher. Many are still pretty young kids and need a steady hand to guide them through a difficult patch. Just concentrating on the next pitch, clearing his head, etc. Or, they could be buying time for the relief pitcher to warm up. That happens a lot.

I’m sure the conversations between pitchers and managers varies a lot. Only a few experienced pitchers will have any success talking a manager out of his decision. I’ve seen it happen occasionally. There’s no point in a manger insulting or berating a pitcher who is having a bad day; no manager is going to instill any support from his team if he does that. A rookie might be damaged by it, and a veteran will simply tune out anything a manager like that would ever say. It’s a non-issue.

Baseball is a team guy, everyone has a role. I’m sure there’s some resentment out there but this is part of the fabric of the game. If you chose to be a catcher, why would you resent the 2nd baseman? You both have critical and important roles to play and are paid accordingly. This IMO is also a non-issue.

ETA: Wow, I spend too much time composing my response. All the good points were taken. :slight_smile:

7

A good hitting catcher is really a bonus. There’s usually more pressure to provide offense on corner infielders and outfielders.

8

This is what they talk about at the mound.

9

While all the talk about managers not berating pitchers when pulling them is true, you occasionally get something like this trip to the mound (audio NSFW), when Tommy Lasorda pulled Doug Rau in Game 4 of the 1977 World Series. Rau made the mistake of trying to defend himself, at which point Lasorda lit into him.

10

I can’t get Youtube at work, but you linked to Bull Durham, didn’t you? :wink:

11

Candlesticks always make a nice gift. :wink:

12

Great link! Lasorda did have a limited vocabulary, though.

13

Thanks guys.

Here’s one last one, and it’s about signs.

  1. Who is in charge of giving signs? My guess would be whoever the catcher looks at? Is that the third or first base coach? Or a manager, pitching coach, someone else? Do the catchers usually think of and plan pitch sequences themselves or do they always refer to whoever they’re staring over at?

4a. Are signs universally the same? I remember one finger down is fastball, two is curveball, three is slider (?) And then the direction to indicate whether the pitch is in or out. Do different teams just generally use different systems to keep the other team from figuring out what pitch will be thrown?

4b. A lot of the times we see pitchers shake off pitch choices (shaking their head no to indicate they want to throw something else.) I don’t understand…what could the pitcher know better than a coach? Why is the pitcher given the final decision? If the pitcher is given the final decision on what pitch to throw, why even bother with signs? I would also guess that when a catcher goes up to the pitcher, and the announcer says “they’re having difficulty getting together in deciding what pitch to throw” then that’s because the pitcher just wants to do it his own way, which may engender resentment or anger?

When a pitcher is praised for fooling a hitter by throwing, for example, two fastballs and then a sinker, who should get the credit for choosing that particular sequence of pitches?

4c. Regarding players and people coming over to the pitcher to either “encourage him” or “settle him down”, I just wanted to comment that for such a slow-paced sport, it’s really kind of mean to make everyone wait longer for this impromptu therapy session. I would argue that if you’re good enough to make it to the big leagues, you should have the maturity and mental composure to deal with it and not waste everyone’s time dealing with your emotions. We pay you millions to pitch, not to make sure your mental state is adequate. Am I vastly underestimating the necessity of these “pep talks” and revealing myself to be a clueless spectator who doesn’t know anything about the sport? :slight_smile:

And one final note. I am trying my best to understand and demystify this great game. I don’t claim to be an expert.

Telemark, how do I go about creating an “omnibus” thread for future questions I may have?

Thanks,

Dave

14

Teams are always looking for each others’ signs, and one way to maintain secrecy is not to let on who’s actually giving them. It could be any of the above, even none, and the OCD-esque gesturing you see from the base coaches can be meaningless distractions. They will also frequently change signs, or the sign-giver, sometimes even during a game. A lot of batters don’t even want to know anyway, though - “You can’t think and hit at the same time” is an old saying. But if you get caught stealing signs, your next batter might best get ready to duck.

The pitcher can shake off a pitch he feels less comfortable with. Whether or not he has the final authority depends on his stature and experience vs. the catcher. If they can’t resolve it, the catcher will go to the mound and they’ll talk it over - with their gloves covering their mouths to foil lipreaders.

About the pace of the game, you’re right - many pitchers *do *think too much, and might be more effective if they kept up the pace instead. That would also help the defense keep more alert.

15

In general, the catcher calls the game, in conjunction with the pitcher and using all the preparation they’ve done on opposing batters and the in game situation. Most don’t take signals from the manager or the coaches on a regular basis, at least not that I know of. Signs coming in from the dugout are often for exceptional things like a pitch out, intentional walk, or in some specific situation.

Since they change up signals when runners are on base, there’s no set signal list. It’s simple enough that you can have many sets and just swap them out as needed. I don’t think there’s any agreed upon standard set of signals.

Pitchers know how to pitch, they research the batters, they know what feels good to them at that moment in time, they can see the batter’s reactions. This is their job, and they’re basically shaking off the catcher, not the coaches, so it’s a matter of agreement between them.

Both the pitcher and the catcher. Calling for a pitch doesn’t guarantee the pitcher can located it in the right spot. But when pitchers and catchers are in sync they generally agree on their approaches to batters. Listen to Curt Schilling’s analysis of setup pitches when he’s covering a game.

Baseball, while it can stand to be sped up, doesn’t rush. We can cut down on the number of visits to the mound but the basic idea is part of the game. You’ll also see things like the catcher go out to the mount if a batter fowls a pitch off their own foot, or an ump gets caught by a fowl tip, to give them a chance to recover without making it obvious. It’s part of the fabric of the game. I don’t think the age or size of paycheck really enters into the conference, everyone needs a sec to calm down and focus if you’re rattled.

Report your thread to a moderator or send email asking to change the title of this thread to something like “Omnibus baseball questions” or just start your next thread with a similar title. Some threads live a long time as long as people keep asking questions.

16

Although Matt Williams chewed Gio Gonzales’ ass on the mound this past week and it snapped Gio out of it. After the game, Gio said that everyone needs a kick in the butt once in a while. It probably worked because it’s so rare.

pianodave, you should check out Nine Innings, by Daniel Okrent. It recounts a game between the Brewers and Orioles from the 1980s. Each half inning iss a chapter. In it, Okrent describes every visit to the mound by the pitching coacher, or manager. If you’re interested in baseball, it’s fascinating.

17

The catcher and only the catcher gives the sign to the pitcher. In some cases a bench coach or pitching coach may be calling pitches, but usually any decent catcher will call the game.

One is almost always fastball. All the offspeed stuff just depends on what’s in that pitcher’s toolbox. For example, I didn’t throw a slider so it was 1. fastball 2. curve 3. changeup 4. knuckleball.
The catcher will have a special set of signs for when a runner is on 2nd base. But with bases empty, you’ll see the typical fingers down and point to inside/outside.

The pitcher is the guy actually throwing the pitch, so he ought to know what’s he comfortable throwing and when to throw it. Sometimes I’d shake off the catcher even when the first sign was what I wanted to throw because I thought it might be too obvious for the batter. Sometimes I was setting up the batter for something in particular, but the catcher may not have been completely aware of that plan.

18

Long time catcher here. I’ll answer a couple of your questions.

A lot of times, when an infielder visits the mound, it is on orders from the manager and the purpose is to give a relief pitcher more time to warm up in the bullpen. First the infielder comes in, then the catcher strolls up, and finally the manager comes out and takes the ball. Usually the manager doesn’t say anything, the pitcher knows what’s up. On rare occasions the pitcher or the catcher will try to lobby the manager, but it doesn’t happen much. Sometimes the hitters are just getting lucky hitting great pitches.

Catchers usually give the signals and call the game. When the bases are empty, it is usually one finger for a fastball, two for a curve, three for a slider, etc. When runners are on base, things switch up. Usually the catcher will throw out a random series of signals, and then an “indicator.” This is a signal to the pitcher that the next signal is the real one, and it will be followed up by more obfuscation.

Candidly, catchers do have a chip on their shoulder. They have to wear ridiculous amounts of gear, they get hurt more often, and they play every day. Catcher’s gear is called “The Tools of Ignorance”, but in reality, catchers are almost always the smartest guys on the team.

19

Greg Maddux was a master of this. It may sound a little far-fetched, pianodave, but Maddux would not only throw a pitch to set up the batter for an out later in the game, but he’s also been known to deliberately place a ball that would set the batter up for an out in a totally different game altogether. He was a master of psychological warfare on the mound. He’d slowly work his pitches close to the side of the plate opposite the hitter, and slowly expand how far out he located it. And usually, the umpires would end up extending the strike zone by 4-6 inches because he was so good at it. He’d pitch a ball so that someone could get a good swing on it, and let them get overconfident about their ability to hit him. Then, later in the game, or later on in the season, he’d throw that same pitch where he wanted it to go, and people would just be flabbergasted that he’d set them up. Players watch a lot of tape on batters (or pitchers)
they’re going to be facing, looking for any slight advantage. Maddux was one of the best at exploiting those weaknesses that I’ve ever seen.

Also (and this goes into the infielders going to the mound, as well), if there’s a runner on say, second base, he generally can see what sign the catcher is showing, and he may be able to relay that to the batter, whether it’s what kind of pitch to be thrown, where the catcher sets up, etc. So they may have a conference to go through all the signs again, to make sure that everyone’s on the same page. And, at times, there can be a language barrier that can cause issues. I want to say that Hideki Irabu (I may be wrong on the player, but he’s jumping out at me for some reason), when he first started in MLB, spoke no English. When the catcher/pitching coach/manager would make a visit to the mound, a translator would accompany them so that everyone could follow the conversation. That doesn’t happen as much anymore, but if you have, say, a pitcher from the Dominican Republic, and a catcher who doesn’t speak Spanish, an infielder may come to the mound to act as the go-between.

Also, sometimes you’ll see a pitcher turn around and face the 2B and shortstop, and point to himself and one of those two players. It can be a defensive meeting where the pitcher’s essentially saying “hey, if he hits the ball back to me, I’m gonna try to get the runner going to second if I can. If that happens, I’m throwing the ball to” whichever person he’s indicated.

20

Noo, noo, noo the manager goes up to the pitcher, says “bad luck” “good try tonight” “thanks, Jim” “sorry Bill” or whatever while holding his hand out for the ball, and pitcher hands him the ball, the manager pats him on the ass, the pitcher walks off, takes off his cap and sits in the dugout and sees the inning out from there, and everyone moves on (its bad form for the disgraced pitcher to head into the clubhouse before the side is retired).

Its bad form for the manager or any other player to berate the pitcher on the mound, its bad enough to approach the mound for ANY reason especially when your already mentally shaken pitcher is pouring gasoline all over the field. Pitchers do NOT like mound meetings.

I’ve seen, on rare occasion, where the pitcher reluctantly gives the ball to the manager and mouths off to him, the best the manager can really do is be stoic, and still pat the petulant pitcher on the ass and see him off. Unless you are Tommy Lasorda, of course!:smiley: