Yes, let’s see how derailed and quickly closed this one can get.
More Now Believe Jews Killed Jesus
We’ve talked about The Passion before, if it helps. I was under the impression that this movie wouldn’t cause any of these feelings. So, given this, why do more people hold these views.
I’m being honest, not sarcastic. I’m also not saying that this movie is the sole reason for these feelings, but I’m sure it’s bound to be discussed.
Since there were only Jews and Romans there it had to be one or the other surely. Not that I give a shit - blame the Swiss if it makes you feel better.
So? What if they did? If Jesus existed, and some aspects of life as written in the bible are true (big IF I know), the people there would have been jewish. So yes, if he was killed, it was probably done so by jews (specially given how they probably the troublemaking rabbi).
If he would have been killed in Japan, I’d wager Japanese would have been responsible.
The quesiton remains, so what? Only a small extremist majority is going to consider that reason to go attack jews. And if they’re that wacked out anyway, they would have found some other reason to do so regardless of “the passion”.
Jesus H christ so many mistakes! Darn typo-demons!
So? What if they did? If Jesus existed, and some aspects of his life as written in the bible are true (big IF I know), the people there would have been jewish. So yes, if he was killed, it was probably done so by jews (specially given how they probably felt about the troublemaking rabbi).
If he would have been killed in Japan, I’d wager Japanese would have been responsible.
The question remains, so what? Only a small extremist minority is going to consider that reason enough to go attack jews. And if they’re that wacked out anyway, they would have found some other reason to do so regardless of “the passion”.
The death of Jesus, the Messiah, only has footing in the religious world. Why do more of these people hold the belief that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus rather than all of us?
That episode of South Park about this, once again, was the most eloquent viewpoint I have yet to see.
Necro Romancer:
You expect us to debate this yet you fail to state your own opinion. That’s just rude. Why do you think this is the case?
Also, what the fuck is up with your sig line? Would you mind enlightening us?
I don’t think that Mel’s lame-ass art project has anything to do with the rise in that belief. People believe all manner of ignorant crapola and the level of ignorance waxes and wanes over the years. Sometimes it’s astrology, other times it’s todays Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus.
Haj
hajaro
Rude? I don’t expect you to debate this, I expect a mod to move this here if I put it anywhere else. As for my opinion, I don’t know. That’s why I posted this here. I’m not trying to prove a point, just trying to understand a poll.
Wir müssen Kuchen für die Juden backen!
We must bake cakes for the Jews!
Jews killed Jesus, Romans killed Ceasar, Russians killed Rasputin, Americans killed David Koresh! Who cares. The majority of non-war killings are commited by the victim’s fellow countrymen.
I don’t see how someone can leverage this to hate Jews while at the same time worshipping one. Be consistent.
No one killed Jesus. He chose to die.
There are a lot of different (even disparate) things that bother me about that poll.
The rise is from 19% to 26% overall, which is very troubling.
What is more troubling was the statement
This indicates a serious shift among rather different groups. What might be the causes?
Among the “under 30” crowd, it might simply be a renewed interesst in the question, influenced by some of the anti-Jewish feelings that have been bruited about since the beginnings of the intifadas. (This, in turn, could be the result of general transference of feeling from the secular state of Israel to the historic Jewish people or it could be a deliberate result of some of the cranks on the Religious Right who actively encourage certain beliefs regarding the Jewish people as part of their desire to see Armageddon brought to fruition in their lives.)
What would be the source of the shift in the black community? Is some of Farrakhan’s vitriol spilling over to even the Christian blacks? Or is the doubling occurring almost exclusively among the (growing) black Muslin (not restricted to NoI) community?
In terms of Gibson’s movie, this poll is fairly useless. The comparison is to 1997. Had anyone wanted to know the effect that The Passion of the Christ had on current opinions, they should have taken a poll last July before the publicity machine (pro and con) ramped up. If the “blame the Jews” attitude had been in the works for several years, inspired (directly or indirectly) by Farrakhan, Sharon, LeHaye, and who knows who or what else, then the movie might have any sort of effect, either negative or positive. Everyone whom I know that has seen it has come out saying that it reinforced their belief that the sinfullness of all humanity was the “cause,” not either the Jews or the Romans.
(Mind you, I am not a big fan of either the “history” or the theology in the movie, but if the movie is going to be attacked for anti-Jewish beliefs or actions, this poll does not provide support for that view.)
EXACTLY! First of all, I was under the impression that the Romans killed Jesus but whatever. I just don’t understand why people think it’s such a big friggin deal. Yeah, according to the Bible, the Jews called for Jesus’ death over Barabbus, but Jesus was a dangerous revolutionary! he was not a mainstream figure - he was dangerous to the status quo. When is the last time the average member of society embraced an iconoclast? And isn’t the whole idea that he HAD to die to save humanity from its sins? Anyone who actually makes an issue of it is just looking for an excuse to be a bigot.
“More” in this case is 102 dudes :rolleyes: - and none of whom were polled the first time. In other words, we don’t even know if any of those 1703 dudes changed their mind becuase of “Passion”- or even saw it! An increase of 6%, where the margin of error is 3% is also not alarming. I agree with Tomndeb that the increase in certain demographics is alarming- but the data is not there to show us how many of that demographic was polled- if the number was very low, that stat is worthless.
It is entirely possible that if they had polled those same 1703 dudes before & after the movie- no ones opinion would have changed.
Not enough samples (only one in each case), and the samples are pretty small. Nor do we know what the questions were or whether or not the poll was in different geographic areas each time.
Another thing which has changed telephone polls is “do not call”- the dudes which put themselves on that list- and thus remove themselves from polling- are a different demographic than those who daon’t. The first poll was taken pre- “do not call”. And, like Tomndeb said, the poll is also not very useful in placing blame on the film.
If we wanted to see if that was a cause, we’d need to poll those who saw the film, and before & after.
Thus the assumption of the OP has yet to be proven valid.
Went to the Poll site- does not say what % of the 1703 were black. Or what % in the earlier poll were black.
Only 19% of those polled had seen the movie.
And the pollsters site admits to bias coming from methods of polling. I’d say we can’t compare telephone poll data before & after 'do not call", since the demographic changed.
One element that is likely being overlooked, though, is how many local Jews knew (or cared) about Jesus and the crucifixion. The movie portray throngs of cheering spectators, but even if this was accurate, I find it more likely that the spectators watching a man be flogged and executed did so for its pure entertainment value (the premieire of Sex and the City being some two thousand ears in the future) , and not because they believe this particular person threatened their religion with his teachings.
In a similar vein, one could describe Romans (and modern Italians, their descendants) of being a bloodthirsty savages based on the movie Gladiator, which shows thousands of spectators cheering wildly at the gruesome shows.
I genuinely wonder:
[ul][li]How well-known was Jesus within his own lifetime? After all, the gospels were written decades after his death, and none of his own writings survive, suggesting he didn’t have a significant impact while alive.[/li][li]How popular as entertainment were crucifixions generally? The impression I get is that it was a deliberately public and showy method of execution.[/ul][/li]
A small handful of Pharisees prompting Pilate to take action? Sure, I could buy that. An entire city (let alone an entire religion) unified against one man? I call “bullshit”, I’m afraid. In any case, anyone who tries to blame me (a somewhat nonobservant Jew) for events that took place 2000 years ago will get a reaction ranging (depending on my mood) from an indifferent shrug to a punch in the mouth.
Anyone know if a statute of limitations existed for murder in the jurisdiction at the time of J’s death?
Surely people can only be held responsible for actions that they have control over.
The death of Jesus was foretold in the scriptures, as he himself appeared to be aware, it was planned to happen that way. Whoever killed him, Jews or Roams didn’t have any choice in the matter. All the evidence points to one culprit.
Basically, God dunnit.
That Judas was framed too…
Who killed Jesus Christ?
a. The Jews did
b. The Romans did
c. You did.
My opinion would be that this is about a book of fiction, and that every reader will have a different take on the meaning of the book. So does it really matter to me? Not really. I guess if some folks take the book for real, then maybe Mel has created a little bit more hate out there. Funny how that happens!
The hill is alive with the sound of crying
A refrain that will sound for two thousand years
“My god why doth though forsake me?”
My heart wants to break, when it hears
And of course who can forget:
Maria, I was born to a mom named Maria