Thank you. And I extend an olive branch to you also. I think that the extermination order is seen by very many of the Saints as one of the precursors to things that happen today, such as the willful and disprespectful violation of the temple mentioned in that link. FWIW, I find the owner of the link to be, at the least, deceptive in its labeling. One who doesn’t know better would think that’s a site published by an LDS member.
I shan’t comment on the particulars of any ritual (especially as I’m not yet eligible for the temple!), but my comment about the conspiracy theories was meant to show that although one may find differing stories with many common elements, those stories may still be false.
From what I have been told and from what I have researched, I think I know why Mormonism isn’t accepted as a mainstream Christian movement.
The Mormon Believe that “As God once was man is, as God is man may become.” Mainstream Christianity does not even begin, come close to believing, and would consider it blasphemy to consider such a thing. God is w/o beginning and without end. He was, is, and will continue to be perfect. Man has a definite beginning (the time of conception). That alone voids out becoming like God.
Mainstream theology holds to the trinity. Mormonism doesn’t. Case in point - the origins of Satan.
Mainstream Christianity holds no secrets. This is true for members and for outsiders. As a mormon, not to hold a temple recommend (which allows you to perform your sacred rights which leads to high favour with God), must be a terrible thing. How does one deal with that? To try and earn God’s favor by imperfect works. Mormons are therefore systematically withheld from the inner workings of their own religion.
The Bible’s theology hasn’t changed. The BOM has had several theological revisions, why? God never changes so why theological and historical revisions?
What do Mormons do with Revelations 22:18-21? This would challenge the validity of the BOM.
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*Originally posted by dweaver * From what I have been told and from what I have researched, I think I know why Mormonism isn’t accepted as a mainstream Christian movement.{QUOTE]
When I first read your post, I thought perhaps some of your charges were unfair. I’m not a Bible-believer, but I have read the Bible, and I don’t really think that it rules out anti-Trinitarianism or new scripture. I also think it’s ludicrous to claim that Christian doctrine hasn’t changed over the centuries.
But then I started wondering, is it even necessary to debate these charges? Why is it necessary to debate whether Mormonism is a mainstream Christian movement? Do Mormons care whether they’re seen as “mainstream?” Is there some secret club that you can only get into if you’re a card-carrying “mainstream” Christian?
Maybe it’s just me, but as far as I can see there are hundreds of sects and religions that believe in Jesus. Muslims, Moonies, Rastafarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox… they all seem to have some tie back to Jesus of Nazareth. When people talk about “mainstream” Christianity in the United States, it seems like they’re usually talking about the major Protestant denominations, but these aren’t “mainstream” outside of the English-speaking world.
Perhaps Mormonism is trying to become a mainstream Protestant religion? Or perhaps they’re upset when people say that Mormons aren’t Christian? I don’t understand that myself. Why should you care what someone else’s definition of Christianity is, whether it includes you or not? Wasn’t Mormonism founded by a man who believed that all of the “mainstream” Christian sects were wrong? Why would Mormons want to be identified with religions that they know are wrong?
Ian
My new explanation for the “Mormons are not Christians” thing is “Mormons are not Protestants.” I told this to my husband, and he said that the Catholics would probably understand it but the Protestants would not.
The reason Mormons care when others accuse them of not being Christian is because it belittles us in a way. The active members of the LDS Church pretty much devote their lives to Christ and His teachings. The love that the members have for Christ is sometimes hard to believe. It’s a slap in the face when people claim that we don’t love Christ enough, or worship him the right way. I don’t know, it’s hard to explain, and I feel I’m not doing a good job.
To quote my friend, “All Mormons are Christians, but not all Christians are Mormons.”
Sometimes I wonder why Protestants are so concerned about the way we choose to Worship Christ. Is their salvation based on what other people do in their spare time? No? Then why is it such a huge issue. It’s hard for me to believe some of these people even know what Christ taught about love, let alone follow His example.
If it’s so odd to worry about how others worship Christ, then why do Mormons send out so many missionaries to places that are already Christian? I’m not trying to criticize, just saying that maybe it’s a double standard. Mormons seem to think that the rest of the Christian world is doing things wrong, so why be surprised when the Christian world responds in kind?
Ian
I think Mormons get upset about being labeled non-Christian because it implies that we don’t believe in Jesus Christ, when in fact we do. We believe that he is our Lord and Savior, and the Son of God. So we don’t understand how anyone could possibly say that we aren’t Christian. Part of this is a difference in the languages various denominations use, and part of it is that some people really think we worship somebody else. LDS people often don’t understand that some people use the term ‘Christian’ to mean ‘evangelical Protestant,’ and think they’re being accused of paganism or something.
There have been very few changes in the BoM, mainly grammatical. The doctrine has not been changed, except for a few words which were printed incorrectly in the first place and later reconciled with the manuscript.
Um, it’s not quite like that. You need to be doing your best to be keeping the commandments in order to have a temple recommend, yes. This is at least partly because when you go to the temple, you make further promises to keep more commandments. It would make no sense to do that when you aren’t even keeping the commandments you’ve already been given. Only our own behavior keeps us from attending the temple. However, we are not trying to earn favor by our works; we know that it is by grace we are saved. But, more light and knowledge are given to us when we use what knowledge we already have in the best way we can. We consider the temple to be a sort of school, where we learn. You can’t go to college until you master the basics of reading and writing, can you? This is similar.
We are all encouraged to live so that we can go to the temple. Those of us who haven’t gotten there yet aren’t ostracized, but encouraged. It’s not like I know which people in my ward hold recommends; it’s none of my business, and everyone is treated alike. We are all working on learning more and becoming better Christians; there isn’t any reason to single anyone out.
As for Rev. 22, that verse applies to the book of Revelation, not the entire Bible. You will find a similar injunction in Deuteronomy. The Bible was not compiled at the time that John wrote Revelation, and that verse in no way restricts God from giving us further knowledge if He wants to.
The LDS Church never, ever accuses Protestants of being “non-Christian” as a whole.
The LDS Missionaries are out to convert people, it is true. However, they were not pushy people, as a general rule. The focus of an LDS Mission to devote two years (or 18 months for women) to serving Christ, and leading by His example. Is it important to convert people? Yes. Do they ever do this by condemning other religions or damning people to hell? No. Is there some sort of quota they must meet? Absolutely not.
Every single Christian who has had a problem with the LDS Religion has never said, “Well, look, this is what I believe. Can we discuss it?” Instead they are pushy and loud in damning other’s to hell. The ones I’ve talked to (Not all protestants) are like this with every single religion. Whereas LDS Missionaries offer their message and then act gracious whether you or not you choose to accept, Protestants actively try to destroy other teachings. Obviously, I do not believe they are loving or tolerant. I suppose the extreme of this would be Jack Chick, who is an equal oppurtunity bigot.
The crux of the matter, for me anyway, is this. The LDS Missionaries always ask if you want to hear their message, and they never explicitly or implicitly state that if you are not a member of the LDS Church you are damned to hell. The Protestants I’ve had “discussions” with do not A)Ask me if I want to hear about it, they just start taking and B)Once they think they have my attention, they assure me that if I don’t change my wicked ways, I will be sorry.
PLG: that’s the way it’s supposed to happen, and AFIK, when a missionary gets a little overzealous, he’s supposed to be corrected by his Mission President. But, as always, I’m sure there’s times and places where what’s supposed to happen doesn’t and what’s not supposed to happen does.
FTR, we don’t care if we’re considered a “mainstream Christian movement.” What I object to is when people deny my faith in Christ. I find it smug, rude and silly. I’ve become more patient with this as I’ve learned that people lump Catholics into the “aren’t Christian” group as well. I feel comfortable with the Catholics, and I can dismiss “you aren’t Christian because you don’t believe in Christ like I do” out of hand.
Oh, you mean there are no secrets now. But there have been. And if you disqualify Christianity because of secrets, you must disqualify Jesus Himself, as well as (what appears to be the case) the primitive Christian church.
Sigh. The “inner workings”–here’s a quick info burst: the core doctrine of the LDS church is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Anything else is merely an appendage to that. No one is denied that, of course, and it is central to what we believe. In the last year as I’ve taught classes in my ward, I’ve made sure that I’ve tied everything I teach about to the Atonement of Christ. It’s been enlightening, to say the least. However, for someone to then tell me I’m not Christian is simply silly.
Furthermore, entrance to the LDS church is through baptism, and potential converts must repent of their sins and be living their lives at least minimally in harmony with the Gospel. Are we then keeping people out of the LDS church because of stringent requirements? I don’t think so.
Then why haven’t we come to a “unity of the faith”? Why are there so many Christian denominations? Frankly, I think it’s arbitrary that people dismiss the (sometimes significant) differences between various protestant sects, but call me unChristian.
Revelation (not Revelations) 22:18-21 cannot be read out of context–see Rev 1:11 (and indeed the whole first chapter of Revelation). If you want to discuss it in more detail, it would be a good idea to start a different thread (say, in Great Debates).
If you haven’t done so already (or you "just don’t do the Pit), I urge you to read both DaveW’s last post and my last post in the pit-thread DaveW linked to on page two of this thread. Kind of pleasant seeing stuff like that pit for a change.
I’ve a question I’ve been curious about ever since my father raised it himself, but I haven’t wanted to ask because a)he didn’t know/didn’t want to discuss it himself, b)it might not be something that can be answered without divulging stuff non-Mormons aren’t supposed to know and c) it might piss Opal off.
That said, I’m going to pose the question here in a yes-no format (because it came up a little earlier in the thread) - if it can be answered in more detail, that’d be great.
First, a (very) little background: My father was excommunicated from the Church because he converted to Presbyterianism in order to marry my mother. When talking about this with a friend of mine who is Catholic, he said he was curious what effect this had on the deceased folks for whom he had performed baptisms.
So, what I want to know is did this excommunication have any effect on those baptisms (doctorinally)?
I’d agree, no effect. I’ve never heard of the effectiveness of the temple ordinances for the deceased being dependant upon the personal worthiness (or later excommunicativeness) of the person performing it.
LDS missionaries aren’t pushy? Hmmmm. Gotta disagree with that one. And yes I have been damned to hell by them also. The only ones they are outdone by is the JWs. And when you try to put out your own religious viewpoints, more often than not, you are criticized in all haste and told that you are too narrow minded.
What do you do with grace. It seems like your salvation is based on what you do. That Jesus Christ’s death wasn’t enough.
As for Rev. 22, when taking in context and the gravity of the msg stated, nowhere in the Bible is this repeated. I would like to see the Deuteronomy reference however.
No? Then why the name change and the new emphasis on the term “Jesus Christ”? Why is the the LDS church asking the media and insisting on it that the Mormon Church be called the “Church of Jesus Christ”? Isn’t the Mormon church afraid of getting confused with some of the fringe groups that also use this title? It seems that the “peculiar people” as you are called to be are trying to mainstream the LDS faith.
He isn’t and that’s the point. Respectfully, From what I have read in the Mormon canon of scriptures, Satan is portrayed as the abherent son of God. Therefore the salvation of the world fell onto Jesus’s shoulder. This happened in the pre-exsitence. I’m not saying I’m right but that is what I was left with.
Every scripture you quoted was Jesus telling his disciples not to broadcast His miracles. If you read further you find out that these were broadcast loud and far.
But your works in the temple decide you far up the proverbial ladder you can go in the after life correct? And I am not saying there aren’t Christians in the LDS faith. I just think that from what I have seen, it is in the minority by the way they treat others outside their religion.
For this one I have an answer – Human Pride. Although I do think there are some variant doctrinal teachings between them.
Rev 1:11 was instructions to John concerning the book of Revelations. What are you trying to get at here, I must have mised it.
So then why does the LDS church inform the media (and ask them to comply with their request) that they want the Church to be known as “Church of Jesus Christ” when referred to in the media? Why the logo change to emphasis “Jesus Christ” in the title? (two years or so ago now).
That’s also something I would like to know. Why if they consider the Protestant religions wrong would they want to mainstream which seems to be the point in the new emphasis in the name and the media request.
Actually, the Mormon Church has officially been “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” for well over a hundred years. They were never known as only “The Church of Jesus Christ”, because IIRC the name was already being used. The change even in the logo was more than two years ago – they used that same logo when I lived out in SLC over 15 years ago. Apparently you’re only just hearing about it now.
As is often the case, the members of the LDS church do not refer to themselves as outsiders do. “Shakers” don’t call themselves that, nor do “Quakers”. Roman Catholics don’t call themselves “Papists”, for that matter. I think all of these designations can be seen as derogatory. “Mormon” isn’t derogatory, but it arguably incorrectly emphasizes one personality and the name of the book, not the center of the Faith. Again, IIRC the original Church name was The Church of Latter Day Saints (hence "LDS), until someone noticed or pointed out a Bible verse that said that “Your Church Will Bear My Name”, so they worked in the “…of Jesus Christ…”
