Mormon church: Joseph Smith married girls and other men's wives

OK, I’ll bite. How many other prominent religious leaders of the 19th century married 14-year-olds? How common was it for 13-year-olds to get married, especially outside of the frontier? You have to keep in mind that Nauvoo was as large as Chicago, and not some one-room shack on in the sticks. IIRC Laura expresses surprise about the marriage and talks disparagingly of the mother.

I’m aware of studies which show the average age of marriage for women in the US in 1840 to be around 18-19 years of age. Outside of a few possible frontier marriages, it would seem as scandal, especially for someone who was in their late 30s, let alone as a secret marriage. One noted scholar pointed out that in New Jersey in 1848-50, as an example, only 0.1 percent of the women married at 14 years or younger.

The problem which you and Sattua are glossing over is that these marriages to Smith were polygamous and because of Smith’s position as almost a demi-god in a tight-knit group waiting for and expecting the Second Coming, inherently coercive.

Helen Mar Kimball, one of the 14-year-olds Smith married, was the daughter of Smith’s close associate.

Regardless if a very small percentage of girls on the frontier (which Nauvoo was not) were getting married, it would still be unconscionable for a religious leader of Smith’s status to obtain girls for marriage in that manner.

The articles I’ve seen have been very sloppy, mostly just quoting from the one-sided essay. Non-apologetic historians have established that some of the marriages were sexual, but there is no “proof” ether way for some of them. That argument just seems to be an bazaar attempt to somehow minimize the ickiness of the whole deal.

Surprisingly, yes. Mormons have attempted to make that whole thing go away, especially for Smith’s marriages to girls and his polyandrous relationships, as the former does not sit well morally and the latter were expressly forbidden by his own claimed revelation on the matter.

The church apparently has really attempted to erase the memories of polygamy, going so far as to portray Brigham Young as monogamist, skipping the other 54 wives, and editing his teachings which reflected polygamy. Likewise biographies of other early pioneers have any mention their other wives or sister wives removed.

One example is Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, where the “Jacobs” was her original husband, “Smith” is Joseph and “Young” is Brigham, who married Zina after Smith’s death.

This theme of Smith getting chicks by claiming his life was threatened by an angel happens a number of times.

Anyway, back to Zina. After Smith is killed, Young claimed Zina for himself, calling her legal husband on a mission to England.

For the LDS church take on the circumstances:

While one poster expressed a disinterest in the human drama and heartbreak these relationships entailed, polygamy was a very lonely and sad experience for almost all of the women.

Had the Internet not happened, then the issue would have gradually faded away as people became further and further removed from their polygamous ancestors. I’m fifth and sixth generation Mormon, with several polygamous great-great and great-great-great grandparents. Each subsequent generation adds another “great” and the family stories become dimmer.

Mormonism has always portrayed itself as a literal religion, that the events in the Book of Mormon actually occurred. That God and Jesus actually appeared to Joseph Smith. That Smith had actually translated some Egyptian papyri which Abraham had written himself. That the church is lead by people who regularly communicate directly with God.

Prior to the Internet, there were very few who had access to the unedited history of Smith, Young, other leaders and all the teachings and events prior to the period around 1920 when the doctrine became more fixed. When teachings and histories conflicted with the sanitized version, it would be labeled as “anti-Mormon” and members were told to shun it, much like early Christianity went through several centuries before settling on an orthodox version.

However, there simply is too much information available, and as it has become more and more accessible to average members, more and more members have stumbled on the troubling issues and have left the church. For those of us growing up hearing stories such as that of Zina, and then to find out that the church misrepresented the facts has led many to decide to leave. The church has acknowledged that these historical issues is causing an unprecedented number of people to leave the religion.

Here is one good place to start. The blog has many of the more liberal members who still believe, while a number of conservatives also interact with them.

Here is a podcast by a really liberal, non-believing member. The negative comments run much higher. One interesting comment.

As a note, the Mormon church is lead by a president and his two counselors and then the Quorum of the 12, modeled after Jesus’ apostles. The 3 in the presidency + the Q12 makes up the Big 15 as us ex-Mormons call them, or The Brethren as the Mormons say.

This is very typical, that member now did not know Smith practiced polygamy, let alone issues of age and polyandry.

Anyway, that’s my [del]novel[/del] story, and I’m sticking to it.

This is interesting in that it’s saying that some women had more than one husband (it doesn’t say they divorced their first husband when they married Smith), and that’s news to me as far as the practice went.

I’m perfectly happy to agree that Joseph Smith was a shyster and a scumbag. I wasn’t trying to get you to “bite” anything, I kind of thought that I was “biting” your OP. I don’t have enough information about how you, personally, feel about this information to have much of a discussion with you about it, capice? You hadn’t presented any of your own thoughts at that point.

I happen to remember that you used to be Mormon. That’s all the information I had to go on.

Whatever. Here’s your comments, which I challenged.

I replied on how that is not the case.

So. . . . . . .

I stand by my observation, in contrast to the way marriage to a 14-year-old would be viewed in today’s society. I’m not saying it was an everyday thing then or that nobody blinked an eye at it, I’m saying that there was nothing disgraceful about it at that time. Polygamy is the more unusual, more interesting aspect of all this.

And I still don’t know how you personally stand on this issue, how Mormon you still are, how shocked you are, in what way you’re shocked, etc. You’re obviously worked up about all this, I just don’t know exactly why.

Anyhow, maybe I’d better clarify my own stance on these “revelations”:

It doesn’t surprise me one iota to find out that any religious leader has done any bad thing. I don’t believe that all religious leaders have, but I certainly suspect all of the charismatic ones of being hucksters and criminals. Same for politicians. Same for businessmen.

I do, however, think that the “married a 14 year old girl”, in the context of the 19th century, is the wrong part of all this to get upset about.

Polygamy and underwear seem to be all that non-Mormons can think of that is characteristic of Mormons, so I guess I am not as shocked as I should be. Smith married a fourteen year old - again, not common but not unheard of either. I always assumed that polygamy meant only one man and several wives, but that was just an assumption on my part.

I am a Christian but not a Mormon, and I am used to the idea of “polygamy is another form of marriage that is not always condemned by God” from stories about the patriarchs, and I heard speculation that the BVM was fourteen or so when she was betrothed to Joseph, so the idea “it was different back then” doesn’t strike me as much by way of special pleading.

And it strikes me rather as discussions about the perpetual virginity of Mary do - it seems rather clearly contradicted by Scripture, the case in its favor is weak, but I don’t particularly care either way because I was not raised to believe it and see no reason to accept it now. So if someone definitively proved that Joseph and Mary had sex, I would react much as I do here.

Okay, so the Mormons officially downplayed or denied the polygamy thing and Smith marrying a young girl. Now they are admitting it. That’s nice. But it is like how they finally figured out that blacks could be priests (or whatever it was) - at least they are changing their story now that they have figured out they’re wrong.

Regards,
Shodan

A sex addict invents a religion and structures it so he can have all the nooky he wants? Sounds like Charlie Manson, only without the gruesome murders.

Well, except for the Mountain Meadows massacre.

Lets not forget about The Mountain Meadow Massacre, either. They get all ansty-in-the-pantsy when you bring that up.

EDIT: Shit! See what happens when I get up to let the dogs in and forget to hit the “post” button for 15 minutes. Now I look like a non-readin’ fool!

Smith and company were part of the widespread religious revival known as the Second Great Awakening. The western New York area hosted so many revival meetings in the region that it was said to have been “burned over” by the fervor of the worshipers. From what I understand, the revival movements had a lopsided membership; many more women joined up then men.

So, this brings up a question: Was polygamy the result of horny male leaders wanting to get it on, or a reaction to the sex imbalance among the various movements? Did they have to take to polygamy to find a place for all of the extra women?

I haven’t been able to find an answer while perusing Wikipedia and other sites (I saw Book of Mormon last weekend, and got curious about the history of the LDS movement), so I am throwing the question out to the teeming millions.

Anyone have an answer?

There’s also speculation that Mormons were responsible for killing three members of John Wesley Powell’s expedition that first boated down the Colorado River. Said members left the expedition in favor of hiking out overland, since everyone was starving by then. They were never heard from again.

An irony that’s not mentioned above:

Orson Scott Card is one of the most zealous (some would say rabid) defenders of “traditional marriage”, and he’s a descendant of the multi-married Zina mentioned above (the one God yo-yo’d between her husband Henry, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young). Orson is her descendant by Brigham.
He’s named for Orson Pratt (who was a good looking young man) whose wife Sarah Ann (painting as a young woman) was ordered to leave her husband and marry Joseph; her husband left the church over it, but later “repented” and evidently Sarah did as she was told. She went back to Orson when Joseph died, went with him to Utah, and there lived in poverty as her husband began taking many other wives (including a teenager when he was an old man- he had a total of 45 children), causing Sarah to say- in terms about this plain- “This is some fucked up bullshit” and leave him after all of her children were grown; most of them left the church as well as she had raised them to do.
Orson Pratt’s brother Parley was actually killed by the previous/legal husband of one of his many wives; one of his descendants is Mitt Romney.

Helen Mar Kimball’s “sealing” to Joseph was no secret at all; she wrote about it in her autobiography (and she died a devout Mormon). Her father (this sexy beast) was one of the most married men in Utah history: he had dozens of wives and fathered at least 65 children (a huge number of whom died young).

In fairness, Joseph Smith had a solid alibi for not being involved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre: he was long dead at the time. Brigham Young’s involvement is the subject of much debate (outside of Mormonism- inside Mormonism it’s a resounding “he…knew…NOTHING…Elder Hogan!”). However, it should be remembered that when Smith was murdered he and his brother were in jail for destroying an anti-Mormon printing press whose publisher had been roughed up a couple of times before, so they weren’t exactly tolerant of dissenting opinions.

Perhaps if you weren’t fixated on the LDS you’d know that 19th century America was filled with religious cults that had sexual practices repugnant to society at large. You could start by looking at the Oneida community and their concept of Complex Marriage. You could also look into the Robert Matthewsand his religious order. Interestingly he met Joseph Smith once. Those are just a couple of the cults that broke off from the mainstream religious practices. You can be sure plenty of clergymen were using their positions to engage in all sorts of sexual shenanigans. It’s a very common religious theme, embodied in the American culture through the novel the Scarlet Letter. The only thing unique about the LDS was that they survived and the descendants of it’s founders have to deal directly with their heritage.

Not necessarily. Many of the plural wives were married due to the circumstances of the day. Once a woman was widowed, she typically had no means of support. Plural marriage was a means of providing for these women. Of course, many unions produced children too.

Honestly, this is no surprise to church members. If the OP’s article was dated after 1852, then he got ninja’ed 'cause we all knew that all along. Heck, JS made a revelation that plural marriage was cool during his life.

There was a scandal of sorts, and that had to do with the direction the church took after Joseph died. Joseph’s wife and kid were actually RLDS members then, and they are the ones who wanted this “scandal” buried.

And some as young as 14. Already addressed up-thread, that was really not uncommon back then for rural areas.

I recalled the only chap who was shot for it, twenty years after, John D. Lee, because the wiki page has a photograph of him sitting on his coffin before being killed.

Major Lee left 19 wives and 56 children.

That should be by his coffin.

The problem plaguing Mormonism is that they don’t have the luxury of time…it’s pretty hard (but not impossible) to prove or disprove biblical events that occurred thousands of years ago…however, it is really not hard at all to discern the roots of the Mormon religion. Key doctrines of the faith can be traced, as one poster mentioned, to the prevailing morality and faith climate at the time of its inception. Then there is also the whole Mason connection which cannot be denied…the so-called Word of Wisdom, allegedly received from God was in part due to the Temperance movement of the day…and prohibition against coffee, tea and tobacco (all of which Joseph Smith used up to his death) can be traced to Brigham Youngs desire to not trade outside the Mormon settlements and pay taxes to the US government, who was quite antagonistic to all things Mormon. We are not talking ancient history, here…and it’s a lot easier to debunk events occurring than two hundred years in the past.

Hey, how about those wacky Mormons going around baptizing Jewish people into the Mormon Church post-mortem? Granted, the thread is about the polygamy issue, but those are the three that come to mind for me.

Anyone ever notice that the Mountain Meadows Massacre took place on 9/11?