Mormon church: Joseph Smith married girls and other men's wives

[TokyoBayer]

I’ve been asked by PM for references to the problematic areas of Mormon history, the first place to go is the MormonThink.com article on the First Vision. Well, actually, the first place you should go is the canonized version itself.

I’ll try to follow up on this point, but basically, the viewpoint among the vast overwhelming majority of active Mormons is that Joseph Smith was a prophet, so anything which doesn’t match the sanitized version of history must be a lie designed by Satan himself to “deceive the hearts of men.” (God never clarified who is running around deceiving the hearts of women, more about that below.)

@Boyo_Jim

You mean, – The sense of betrayal is unbelievable to people who didn’t realize they ARE in a cult…

Still, I don’t see anything here that’s any more, or any less, crazy than any other religion. Me, I wonder how people remain Catholic after learning that their Church has been a pedophile support group for at least a century.

But what do I know?

IIRC, you had a Catholic upbringing, so I would presume you would know. My wife’s friend met this guy in America, she fell in love and they decided to get married. Reports described how wonderful he was, how much he loved her, and all the romantic things they did.

They came back to Taiwan, no one else liked him; he gave off a weird vibe. I talked to him once and just shook my head afterward, but the friend wouldn’t listen to anyone.

A year later, she finally did get out of the marriage, and was terribly heartbroken because he had been cheating on her from day one. I think you are right that unfortunately, a lot of people can understand betrayal.

I think the question of betrayal depends on a number of factors. How much did you trust the person or institution? How much of your identity was involved? How many mental gymnastics was required to overlook the obvious nature of deceit?

Finding out that you are not the only partner your friends with benefits has shouldn’t be as devastating as discovering that the person you have mutually agreed to love, cherish and respect each other is “loving, cherishing and respecting” someone on the side.

I know former Evangelical Christians who also have had a faith crisis, as well as those raised Catholic. I think that part of the crisis is how much indoctrination has happened.

[TokyoBayer]

@robert_columbia

I remember reading somewhere that an oversized percentage of converts that the LDS receives in Japan are teen girls primarily for this reason. Most people there don’t really care too much to look into the faith. Heaps of teen girls go gaga over the cute Western boys who don’t drink, smoke, or sleep around and end up spending more time with them, and end up converting.

Yes, that happens, although they don’t even think that much about the drink, smoke and sleep around. They are cute Western boys.

[del]I was a Mormon missionary to Japan in the early 80s, and only had two girls fall in love with me. That was because I never talked to anyone. [/del] That was my friend, really. I’m not stealth bragging.

There were guys who were actively hitting on anything which moved and would need to be transferred from one area to the next to the next.

This was more than 30 years ago, and with much less knowledge of the Western world, suddenly having 19- and 20-year-old polite boys in and of itself affected a certain percentage of teenage girls and young women. I’ve always heard about girls who thing that French men are super romantic or love British accents, so I think it’s probably the same thing. Of course, guys have their particular traits as well. I knew one “sister” (woman) missionary who was rather well endowed. She had boys falling in love with her as well.

On a more serious side, the church ran into a huge problem in the late 1970s to early 80s, the period when I was a missionary. It wasn’t just young women joining, the missionaries were targeting young men for converts as well.

This was at the tail end of the “Kikuchi / Groberg” era which saw 1,000 baptisms per month in the Tokyo South Mission. Typical missions are about 200 missionaries (100 sets) and the number of converts really depends on the area. South America used to see several hundred, Africa is doing really well, now. Europe, there’s very few.

You can read about the story here.

On October 1, 1977, Yoshihiko Kikuchi was called as the first Japanese general authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Kikuchi had studied business psychology in college and was a sales manager of the Japanese branch of Rena Ware, a multi-level marketing company. He used his manipulative business skills to pressure members not only into buying his products, but also into paying for various church expenses.

For example, although the church often says that tithing is used to pay for its temples, many of such structures have been constructed through the use of separate “temple funds,” which are collected in addition to the tithe members must pay if they wish to hold a temple recommend (which without, they cannot enter the temple further than the lobby).

The Tokyo Temple was one of such temples, and it was Kikuchi who “was able to lead the dedicated Saints of Japan to gather 124% of the temple funds within a year and a half.” Sadly, this was just one of many incidents in which the church financially took advantage of the Japanese people.

On July 1, 1978 - less than a year after Kikuchi had been called as a Seventy - the Japan Tokyo South Mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was formed through the division of the Japan Tokyo Mission into the Japan Tokyo North and Japan Tokyo South missions.

Delbert H. Groberg was called to open this new mission and preside as its first president; he would serve under Kikuchi, who was then the Executive Administrator for Japan and Korea. On the second day after his arrival in Japan, Groberg met with Kikuchi and was told of his vision. That night, Groberg wrote the following in his journal:

Elder Kikuchi came out to our home and we talked from 3:30pm until 7:00pm. He really has high expectations of me. I had thought that 10 times as many baptisms as they are getting now would be a good goal to shoot for (about 10,000). Before telling him, I asked him what he felt I should do. He mapped out the progress as he expected and it turned out to be 25 times as much as what is currently happening minimum! (And he stressed minimum!) That seems like a lot, but I believe we can make it.

Basically, Elder Kikuchi was called as the area supervisor and decided to take the Tokyo South mission from baptizing less than 100 per month to over 2,000 per month. That would be 20 converts per companionship each month.

What happened next was predictable.

As mentioned previously, members of the LDS faith like to praise those they are trying to appeal to as “wonderful people.” This is one of the techniques used by Groberg, who instructed his missionaries to use “Open-Heart Teaching” to draw closer to potential investigators. This method involved missionaries teaching a 10- to 15-minute introductory lesson before they moved into the 6 actual lessons that taught about the church.

During this introductory lesson, missionaries would “1) Develop a genuinely warm, friendly relationship with the investigator. 2) Introduce himself (where from, what he used to do, family, interests, etc.) and give some personal goals. 3) Find out a little about the investigator, including a few of his personal goals (be an accountant, be a good father, etc.) and confirm his general goals (grow and progress, be happy, etc.); also get his schedule so he would know when he had time to meet next.” After having this cookie-cutter conversation, missionaries would then press the investigator for a commitment to listen.

Groberg provides us with an example of how such a conversation should follow in his thesis; missionaries were to say, “Now that we’re friends, would you like to hear a little about why we are here (in Japan)? (Explain) Even though I’m spending my own time and money I’m very happy to be a missionary among the great (Japanese) people. You teach me a lot, and I hope I can teach you some things too.”

The missionaries would then begin teaching about the church and its gospel. Notice that in the phrase “the great (Japanese) people,” the parenthetical group could be replaced by just about anything and still have the same effect anticipated by the church. It is also worth pointing out that the missionaries were to find out potential investigators’ schedules before telling them about the church; this would make it harder for an individual to make up an excuse of why he couldn’t meet on a certain day after learning the missionaries’ true intentions.

This is especially true in the case of the Japanese, who are often too polite to say “no” in the first place, which was only made more difficult because many Japanese were (and still are to some degree) intimidated by foreigners.

Groberg also had missionaries stop focusing on families and instructed them to go out and look for young people, mainly those “from mid-high school to late college.” He was aware that “these years coincided with a time of searching for identity, establishing values, and determining their purposes in life,” and wanted to convert the Japanese youth so that the church would be the one to determine their identity. Groberg did research on the legal age at which investigators could receive baptism without parental permission, and found out that it was 18 and not 20 as had been assumed.

As a result, he got many young college students to convert to Mormonism while completely disregarding how their parents might feel. As Groberg puts it, “Parental permission was no longer required as a condition of receiving baptism. Suddenly a major barrier had been removed.” It is interesting that a church which claims to be family-oriented would encourage individuals be secretive about their membership.

Something else Groberg did was give a special title to missionaries who were able to get large numbers of baptisms by doing “what hadn’t been done before.” Such individuals were called “Ensign” missionaries, and it was through their “diligent” efforts that the Japan Tokyo South mission was able to break the 1000-baptisms-per-month barrier.

However, as many returned missionaries from the Groberg Era have reported, these high-baptizing missionaries would often use illegitimate methods of attaining baptisms, such as going out and getting drunk at parties to make new friends, whom they would immediately baptize thereafter. Groberg eventually constructed “collapsible fonts and supplied one to each unit in which missionaries were working,” so even performing on-site baptisms at parties became feasible. Many of these missionaries admitted to using dishonest methods of conversion to Groberg, but he was apparently fine with whatever the means were as long as the missionaries were meeting their quota for baptisms.

The exceptional missionaries were invited to a monthly “recognition dinner at the mission president’s home,” while those who weren’t able to meet the quotas were chewed out in personal interviews with Groberg. The mission newsletter was turned into a stats sheet where those who were seeing the most success were praised as exemplary missionaries. The pressure and guilt that Groberg (and those above him) heaped upon the young men and women who were sacrificing 2 years to serve the church in Japan were almost unimaginable.

(huge wall of text broken into paragraphs)

Back to me. Our mission was getting about a hundred per month and Elder Kikuchi came down and read us the riot act. This was the first time I ever felt that a general authority was clearly wrong. I was translating his harangue into Japanese for the native missionaries, and I simply lied about what he was saying.

Halfway through my mission, Elder Kikuchi was fired, “reassigned” as they put it, and a replacement came from Salt Lake. He admitted that more than 90% of the people baptized in the previous five years were completely inactive. Our new assignment was to track them down and see if they wanted to simply pretend it never happened.

I had undergone a faith crisis and the used-car salesman approach appalled me. Even before I went home, all the people we had dunked were inactive. I had not wanted to push them so quickly but was overruled by my senior companions.

The idea of righting past wrongs invigorated me; I threw my heart into it, and perhaps unsurprisingly, I was much better at this task. I’m probably one of the few missionaries with a net negative number of baptisms.

Not surprising for non-Mormons, this wasn’t the first time this sort of thing happened and it’s not the last.

[TokyoBayer]

@dropzone

A bunch of true/false questions you’re obviously supposed to mark true, and some essay questions you know up front so you can easily google them beforehand and keep them in your phone. Piece of cake.

Yeah, it’s only a problem is you are honest about it.

Normally, most (many? some?) Christian churches only require that you accept Christ, although most of them require you believe in the right Christ. Any historical event is thousands of years in the past, so it’s not as much of an issue.

Mormonism requires you to believe in a canonized, but fictionalized history. Hence the struggle many are going through.

@Claverhouse

Perhaps they give you a pass for 95%.

Like say, ‘I agree to everything except tithing’.

The problem I had when I quit was that no longer did I have that extra 10%, I could now drink. Using the tithing money for buy Jim Beam landed me in rooms full of strangers in basements of churches, stale coffee and reciting twelve steps.

@Sampiro

My main problem with the Mormon episode of South Park and the Book of Mormon is that the message seems to be “So what if it isn’t true? If it makes their lives better, what’s the harm?”

The harm being Proposition 8, and women being told that they risk damnation if they don’t keep having babies or if they leave an unhappy marriage, or being required to give 10% of your income even if you’re on welfare to one of the richest churches on Earth. It’s not all fairy tales and smiles.

This is exactly the debate going on right now in the post-Mormon world between us bitter ex-Mormons and the NOMs (new-order Mormons) who don’t believe in it, but remain because they find meaning in it.

Many ex-Mormons side with you. I do, as I’ve written previously. To quote myself from a post on another site,

My father is dead, cancer taking its tolls some 30 years ago. Counselor in the bishopric after a decade of being the ward clerk. Regular temple goer. Full tithe payer. Home teacher. Returned missionary. Never once broke the Word of Wisdom. Vacations were planned around church attendance, the family would pack Sunday clothes. At his funeral, the entire ward attended to hear the bishop’ praise. Oh, and one of the most viscous, cruel men you could ever meet, a man who inflicted mental illness on his wife and five children.

She doesn’t remember. Or maybe she doesn’t want to.

I asked her. If he had forced her. She remembered the tears but offered that she can’t recall if it was his idea for her get down on her hands and knees and lick his shoes, or if she did it on her own accord just because of the inner-directed hate and loathing.
. . .

A strong patriarchal society can benefit many. Some thrive in its security. But when it goes wrong, it goes spectacularly bad.

There were no checks to power in the 1960s and 70s. The father was the head of the household, especially within temple-attending, active believing Mormonism.

From an article in Friend, a magazine for children and youth:

In 1974, the First Presidency stated: “Honoring your parents by living a good life and by showing them that you love and appreciate them are gifts that last forever. To your earthly mother and father and to your Heavenly Parents, you are their most valuable treasure. Their love and concern for you never ends” (Friend, Dec. 1974, 3). We can trust our parents to want what is best for us. They love us and want us to be happy. One way we can find happiness is by obeying them.

The entire priesthood structure was such that the leader was to be followed unquestioningly. The assumption was that he was right, and not following was wrong.

“The good wife commandeth her husband in any equal matter by constantly obeying him.” Maintain Your Place As a Woman by President Harold B. Lee

The development of the Correlation Program of the church in the 1960s and 70s created an even closer correspondence between families and the church as an organization. This program shifted more of the decision-making power to men and reduced the autonomy of the women’s organization. (Cornwall, 1983.) It established a pipeline of authority from the president of the church down through the organizational hierarchy to the husband as head of the household. Children and wives were linked to the church through their fathers and husbands. Thus, the church programs, and the husband’s role in these programs, further legitimizes his authority.

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/religion-and-family-connection-social-science-perspectives/chapter-6-four-c-s-mormon-family

My mother was as completely believing, accepting and submissive to the church as anyone I’ve ever seen. She loved and cherished the gospel that gave her such comfort. She marveled in the power of the church, its guidance and clarity. I grew up in a 24/7 Sunday School as our home life revolved around the wonders of early Mormonism. Several of her ancestors were early converts, one back in early 1832, and many polygamous families.

Those daily teachings from my mother were centered around obedience to the divinely inspired leaders. N. Elden Tanner’s famous quote, “When the Prophet speaks the debate is over.” was often quoted, as well as countless other sayings stressing this principle.

And my father knew and exploited that mercilessly. Looking back, now as an adult, it’s apparent that he hated himself, and strove to push everyone down, below him. My mother, once gave a Relief Society lesson which others complimented her on. She made the serious mistake of telling my father about that. Unable to withstand his viscous response my mother got down on her hands and knees, scrubbing the kitchen floor reminding herself that she was worthless. Mother had committed the unpardonable sin of “pride” by simply enjoying a tiny boost to her woefully inadequate self-esteem.

No, the church did not encourage my father to beat, abuse and molest his own children. I am not suggesting that. However, as you say, when the church tells women that they risk damnation for leaving families, and they only pay lip service to the abuse which will naturally occur within a heavily patriarchal society, then they also bear responsibility.

Without the tiniest sense of irony, the LDSmag.com, an online publication plays up the Liahona Children’s Foundation a group of Mormon who have set up a private NPO not affiliated with the church to help malnourished Mormon children in developing worlds.

Occasionally, as I reported in my article in July, we meet children who are so severely malnourished it is evident from the moment we see them. This was the case with Samantha, a little girl who was part of our screening in Palmira, a city to the Northeast of Cali. Of the more than fifty children we screened that day, she was the one we all noticed immediately. Not only was she severely under-weight and stunted, but it was clear that she had suffered more serious effects from malnutrition.

When we interviewed her mother, we were told that when she was pregnant with her daughter, she had had severe food insecurity herself, sometimes going days without eating. While the mother has recovered, the child clearly has not. Unlike other children, during the screening she showed no emotion. It was a graphic demonstration of the cost of not addressing malnutrition as early as possible. To see it face-to-face is sobering. We gave the bishop some money to provide immediate help for this little girl.

LDSMag is promoting this as showing the world how wonderful Mormons are, yet no one is thinking about the other message the church publishes

Pay [tithing] first, even when you think you do not have enough money to meet your other needs. Doing so will help you develop greater faith, overcome selfishness, and be more receptive to the Spirit.

Or more directly,

If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.

This is fucking insane. Here are children who are dying of malnutrition, and the church is pushing this. As you say “It’s not all fairy tales and smiles,” it’s unconscionable that that church which built a 2 billion dollar shopping mall in Salt Lake City won’t feed it’s own poor, even when they are dying. Merry Christmas.

[TokyoBayer]

Sampiro, this story about Emma may interest you. I had read about this before, but from a fellow bitter ex-Mormon, so I hadn’t really trusted the information. However, it has been confirmed from a legitimate scholar.

Between June 23 and July 12, 1843 – Emma Smith to “partake not”

On July 12, 1843, an earlier revelation regarding Emma Smith was rescinded. D&C 132:15 refers to an earlier commandment telling Emma that she “partake not of that which I commanded you to offer her … to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else.” (D&C 132:51)

Earlier that summer on June 23, Joseph confided some “delicate matters” to William Clayton who wrote about a “snare” Emma wanted to set for Joseph as a matter of revenge. Speaking of Joseph, Emma said “She thought that if he would indulge himself[,] she would too.”[23]

Joseph Jackson reported that Joseph Smith told him that “Emma wanted [First Counselor William] Law for a spiritual husband, and that she urged as a reason that as he had so many spiritual wives, she thought it but fair that she should at least have one man spiritually sealed up to her”.

Apparently referring to the same revelation referred to in D&C 132:15, Jackson said Joseph Smith “got up a revelation that [William] Law was to be sealed up to Emma, and that Law’s wife [Jane] was to be his [Joseph’s]”[24]

Jackson said they were to “swop wives.” Years later, William Law said it was not a swap, recalling that “Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy”.[25]

Apparently the commandment to Emma about marrying William Law occurred after Joseph described the “delicate matters” to Clayton on June 23, 1843. Just over two weeks later On July 12, D&C 132:15 rescinded the offer to Emma, categorizing it as an “offering” by “sacrifice.”

@God

… A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. … And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. … (D&C 132:51, 54)

D&C refers to Doctrine and Covenants canonized revelations to Joseph. Section 132 is the section which concerns polygamy.

William Law was one of the First Presidency, the governing leadership of the church. William Law reject the offer and also rejected polygamy in any form. After the Laws rejected the offer, Joseph claimed that it was Jane Law who had propositioned him. He had quite the history of tarnishing the reputation of women who rejected his advances.

Anyway, William Law had a following out with Joseph concerning polygamy and then with others went on to publish the Nauvoo Expositor, the newspaper which exposed Mormon polygamy. Joseph acting in his role as mayor of Nauvoo ordered the press destroyed and that lead to his arrest and subsequent murder while in jail awaiting trial.

[kaylasdad99]

Quick question: in all of the (admittedly not numerous) accounts I have read concerning the death of Joseph Smith, I have gotten the distinct impression that it bore the salient characteristics of a lynching. And yet, EVERYONE I’ve heard of or read of who refers to the event characterizes it as a murder.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that every lynching is an act of murder, how does it come to be that Joseph Smith is NEVER described as having been lynched?

[Boyo_Jim]

John Dehlin, mentioned by the OP in Post #73, seems about to be excommunicated for … apparently speaking openly about disagreements about doctrine.

[dropzone]

@Boyo_Jim

I find it hilarious that someone might become a Mormon as an act of rebellion.

Had a couple female friends in high school who were inspired to convert because they were Donnie Osmond fans. Didn’t just talk about it. They converted.

@kaylasdad99

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that every lynching is an act of murder, how does it come to be that Joseph Smith is NEVER described as having been lynched?

Probably because lynching IS murder, though I’ve seen it described as a lynching. Or just a shooting and voluntary defenestration, followed by more shooting. They wanted to be real sure.

@Boyo_Jim

John Dehlin, mentioned by the OP in Post #73, seems about to be excommunicated for … apparently speaking openly about disagreements about doctrine.

Hadn’t Dehlin already left the church, making this a “You can’t quit; you’re fired?”

[Melbourne]

@DinoR

I’m a recovering Catholic. The Catholic Church has centuries of papal infallibility before Joseph Smith ever pulled the rock out of his hat. You want to talk about issues that had to get plastered over later…

The RC church had discussed/debated papal infallibility for centuries. In 1870 it decided that it had always thought that the pope had always been infallible. Only one century.

I think it was JFK’s mother who said that what pissed her off wasn’t that the church would one day decide that divorce was kosher, it was that one day the church would decide that it had always been kosher.

[BrainGlutton]

@Boyo_Jim

These marriages were all about begetting, weren’t they?

Were they? I beget.

[BrainGlutton]

@dropzone

Had a couple female friends in high school who were inspired to convert because they were Donnie Osmond fans. Didn’t just talk about it. They converted.

I hope they recovered comfortably from the tooth-enlargement procedure.

[BrainGlutton]

@Boyo_Jim

I find it hilarious that someone might become a Mormon as an act of rebellion.

Of course, the first generation were all rebels.

[BrainGlutton]

@Sampiro

My main problem with the Mormon episode of South Park and the Book of Mormon is that the message seems to be “So what if it isn’t true? If it makes their lives better, what’s the harm?”

The harm being Proposition 8, and women being told that they risk damnation if they don’t keep having babies or if they leave an unhappy marriage . . .

Wait, do Mormons even believe in damnation? I don’t think there’s any Mormon Hell. Three Heavens, but no Hell. There is something called Outer Darkness, but almost nobody goes there. IIUIC.

[TokyoBayer]

@kaylasdad99

Quick question: in all of the (admittedly not numerous) accounts I have read concerning the death of Joseph Smith, I have gotten the distinct impression that it bore the salient characteristics of a lynching. And yet, EVERYONE I’ve heard of or read of who refers to the event characterizes it as a murder.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that every lynching is an act of murder, how does it come to be that Joseph Smith is NEVER described as having been lynched?

A quick question, but a damn slow answer. Sorry, I kept thinking I needed to do something.

I think that the general image of lynching is when a mob or group of people actually physically get the guy and then kill him. In Smith’s case, he was shot through a window.

Growing up and even now among Mormons, it was common to say he was martyred, but that’s also problematic since he was jailed for treason after he had order the destruction of the press which had exposed not only his polygamy but also the polyandrous relationships as well as other shocking revelations.

The treason charges stemmed from his having declared martial law in Nauvoo in an attempt to avoid arrest warrant from the county courts.

A quick aside.

[spoiler]A fundamental identity of Mormonism is being part of the cosmic struggle between God and the powers of good verses Satan and his evil, especially in the End Days[sup]TM[/sup]. Early Mormons were horrifically persecuted because Lucifer knew that he needed to stop Joseph Smith and the Saints before the coming the Savior.

As a small, misunderstood group against the Evil World[sup]TM[/sup], we are a high school football team playing goal line defense against an NFL team but will prevail through the power of the All Mighty[sup]TM[/sup] if we are faithful enough. You damn well better not drink that cup of coffee, kid or the universe will lose the game. Do you want baby Jesus to cry?

This is the reason why reason is not reasonable. Or in other words, desperate times require desperate measures and we are not to question even the tiniest detail because the fate of God’s Plan[sup]TM[/sup] hangs on the balance. Ben said it best. “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

As Mormons we were taught that Smith was martyred because of the Evil One. This follows the persecution which drove the Saints out of Missouri, which they had gone because they were driven out of Kirkland Ohio, and driven out of New York before that. It goes back all the way to the canonized history of Joseph Smith, and that as a 14-year-old boy, he was persecuted mercilessly for telling people that he had a vision and had seen God and Jesus.

All this pesky internet business now allows anyone to find out that the story of meeting God was a later story backdated, so he could not have been persecuted. He had been using a magic stone to look for buried fortunes and the people who drove him out of New York were his fellow treasure hunters looking for the “Golden Bible” which, had he found it, should have been split as per their agreement.

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that he and No. 2, Sidney Rigdon had to flee Kirkland because their Ponzi scheme went south, and the followers who lost their shirts wanted cash from them. There were fighting with neighbors in Missouri, but it was started by the Mormons.

In the last couple of years, Smith suffered from megalomania. He had himself crowned King of the World and commissioned himself at a Lt. General of the Nauvoo Legion, and while it was the largest militia in Illinois at the time, with 10,000 men, in the pre-Civil war days, he made himself the highest ranking officer in the nation. In the final years, he used “General” as his title when dealing with outsiders.

In the view of many scholars, his death was the best thing for the early movement, which allowed the tough and pragmatic Brigham Young to take over.[/spoiler]

A mop broke into the jail, Smith had a smuggled pistol and manager to injure three of the attacking members.

Some bitter ex-Mormons will say that he lost a gun battle, but I think saying he was murdered is probably the least loaded word (no pun intended).

@Boyo_Jim

John Dehlin, mentioned by the OP in Post #73, seems about to be excommunicated for … apparently speaking openly about disagreements about doctrine.

Yes, Dehlin’s time is up. I don’t remember how much I wrote about him, but he’s been controversial among the various "Bitter Ex-Mormon <–> Cultural Mormons <–> True Believers.

He had been a TBM (true believing Mormon) and then has his crisis of faith when he first discovered that the church had been intentionally misleading members about its history. He left a comfortable job with Microsoft to help other Mormons who were going through similar discomforts. Many Mormons lose their families and even their jobs when they stop believing, as well as all of the emotional turmoil and identity crisis.

He’s been in the public spotlight for 10 years as a cultural Mormon who wanted to help members remain in the church despite the issues. His philosophies and attitudes have changed over the years and he has been closer and further away from the church at different times.

This is where some people in all the camps hate him. The TBMs hate him because he talks about and gives a platform to those discussing the problems. Bitter ex-Mormons hate him because he didn’t become a bitter ex-Mormon. The middle guys hate him because, I donno, I don’t understand the middle camp.

Not that everyone hates him. In fact, his podcasts are enormously popular, with anywhere between 50,000 to 100,000 downloads for each episode.

Over the years, he’s faced disciplinary councils a number of times, and had backed down from some issues. He did an interview with Tom Phillips, a former upper middle management guy who had received the super secret initiation ritual called a Second Anointing. That is an ordinance in which the recipient and his wife are given Get Out of Jail for Free cards with a guaranty that they will become gods and goddesses in the hereafter. Pretty cool, he?

Tom split from the church and gave his interview with Dehlin who backed off posting the episode because of pressure from the church. The Second Anointing is super secret, even from active members. I had never heard about it. Tom has posted the five-hour interview himself. For us former members, it’s fascinating.

Dehlin says thison his Mormon Stories website.

The main items specifically mentioned to me by President Bryan King and Bishop Brian Hunt as contributing to my alleged apostasy include:

[ul]My 10-year effort with Mormon Stories podcast(http://mormonstories.org), wherein difficult historical and cultural issues are discussed in an interview format.[/ul]
[ul]My public support of same-sex marriage.[/ul]
[ul]My public support of the Ordain Women movement.[/ul]
[ul]My publicly expressed doubts regarding key elements of orthodox LDS theology.[/ul]
[ul]My publicly expressed criticism of the church’s approach to LGBT members, feminists, intellectuals, as well as its lack of transparency regarding finances.[/ul]

While my family and I would prefer to be left alone by LDS church leadership at this time, I would much rather face excommunication than disavow my moral convictions. In the coming weeks, months, and years ahead, it is my intent to provide increased support to Mormons who are transitioning away from orthodoxy.

The church excommunicated Kate Kelly, the founder of Ordain Women movement back in June. Dehlin was given notice that he would face discipline at the same time, but for a number of reasons, it has been postponed until now.

[BrainGlutton]

@TokyoBayer

As a result, he got many young college students to convert to Mormonism while completely disregarding how their parents might feel. As Groberg puts it, “Parental permission was no longer required as a condition of receiving baptism.”

Well, of course not. Mormons baptize dead people. Do you think they ask their permission?

[TokyoBayer]

@dropzone

Had a couple female friends in high school who were inspired to convert because they were Donnie Osmond fans. Didn’t just talk about it. They converted.

Along with people like Steve Young of the 49ers fame, the Osmonds are Mormon royalty. Mormons and the church love this sort of thing. They are forever thinking that if people could just see how good they are, then everyone would join. They recently paid for a self-made [del]infomercial[/del] “documentary” Meet the Mormons which was released in theaters nation wide. The critics panned it but the viewers loved it. Guess you can’t imagine the only people to plunk down cash for a self-congratulatory flick, can you?

Hadn’t Dehlin already left the church, making this a “You can’t quit; you’re fired?”

Nope, as explained above. It’s a point of honor to be ex’ed.

@Melbourne

The RC church had discussed/debated papal infallibility for centuries. In 1870 it decided that it had always thought that the pope had always been infallible. Only one century.

I think it was JFK’s mother who said that what pissed her off wasn’t that the church would one day decide that divorce was kosher, it was that one day the church would decide that it had always been kosher.

+1000. This exactly. It makes you want to smack them and scream, “No! You’re lying!”

Jan Shipps, the foremost non-Mormon scholar of Mormon history, says that what fascinates her is that Mormonism presents a chance to study not only the winners in the struggles for orthodoxy, but also the losers. The history is too young to hide.

Too many people are discovering that they accepted the story that things had always been kosher and are now discovering exactly when things were changed.

[TokyoBayer]

@BrainGlutton

Wait, do Mormons even believe in damnation? I don’t think there’s any Mormon Hell. Three Heavens, but no Hell. There is something called Outer Darkness, but almost nobody goes there. IIUIC.

Actually, there are going to be a lot of our brothers and sisters there.

According to Mormon theology (at the moment, everything is up for grabs) everything has always existed forever. We were what are called “intelligences” which were not created, and then God and his many wives made a bunch of spirit babies in a place they call the Pre-existence[sup]TM[/sup]. Jesus was the first born spirit baby and Lucifer was also one of us. We progressed until we got to a certain point where we couldn’t progress any further without physical bodies.

The Gods held a Grand Council and Jesus presented what is now called God’s Plan of Salvation[sup]TM[/sup] (like senior researchers get top billing even though the junior guys do the work). Lucifer presented Plan B, which was that we all get saved, but we don’t have free will. The Gods didn’t like that, so his plan was x’ed. He didn’t like that, so he gathered his supporters, one-third of the Hosts of Heaven and there was a giant battle. They lost, and got kicked out. They’re currently roaming around the Earth, tempting us.

When it’s all said and done, they will get sent to Outer Darkness[sup]TM[/sup] along with those who commit the unpardonable sin of “denying the Holy Ghost.” Murders, child molesters, tyrants, Hitlers, Pol Pots and all get into one of the heavens, the worst of which is so wonderful that if we knew how great it is, we’d kill ourselves. (Joseph Smith’s own words.)

It’s never actually been officially declared what denying the Holy Ghost means. The common teaching is that it would be someone on an apostle level who absolutely knew Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost and denied it. However, trying to get leader to officially define Mormon theology is like trying to nail jello to the wall. In the past, apostate such as myself, a former priesthood holder, would qualify.

At any rate, with one-third of all spirit babies eventually headed there, it’s going to be quite crowded.

Grabbing a number off the net, it’s been estimated that 108 billion people have ever lived on the planet. That calculates to a minimum of 46 billion souls headed there, if the world were to end today.

The evil spirit’s main job is to temp us, and with 7 billion people on Earth now, each person gets seven spirits hanging around telling them they don’t have to do the dishes.

Mormons believe that children are born without sin and if one dies before the age of eight, they get to go straight to the special VIP heaven where they and faithful Mormons will hang out and eventually become Gods and Goddesses.

For over a hundred years, Mormons wouldn’t allow blacks basic rights of the gospel, with the exception of the simplest level of baptism, but couldn’t go to the temple to receive the ordinances which would allow them to get into the VIP heaven.

(Blacks were fence sitters in the Great War, so they were sent down with black skin as punishment, and could only get into the VIP Heaven as servants. However, since that all changed in 1978 and we’ve never taught that.)

The ironic part is that because historically high infant and child mortality, the number of blacks in the VIP Heaven will vastly overwhelm the number of Mormons. From the Population Reference Bureau

In any case, life was short. Life expectancy at birth probably averaged only about 10 years for most of human history. Estimates of average life expectancy in Iron Age France have been put at only 10 or 12 years. Under these conditions, the birth rate would have to be about 80 per 1,000 people just for the species to survive. Today, a high birth rate would be about 45 to 50 per 1,000 population, observed in only a few countries of Africa and in several Middle Eastern countries that have young populations.

Suddenly, it looks like the VIP Heaven is going to be really, really crowded. If all of these are to become gods and goddesses, each getting their own planet, the universe is going to have a population explosion.

And if all that isn’t enough to blow your mind, there are some parts of the theology that were so weird, that even the Mormons couldn’t handle it. (I may have posted this already), but Brigham Young and most of his inner circle believed that Adam was God, or rather that God came down and became Adam, bringing one of his wives with him. That is now considered heretical, and teaching that will quickly get you excommunicated.

In the 1850s, after the Mormons came over to Utah and were isolated in their own quasi theocratic political entity, Young and other leaders would get up on Sundays and make up theology as they went along. Many of their talks were recorded in the Journal of Discourses. The church has been trying to make them disappear but they are online.

I just opened a random talk, and we have Brother Brigham teaching that the “heathens” won’t get into the VIP Heaven but I’ll be sent into Outer Darkness.

How many Gods there are, and how many places there are in their kingdoms, is not for me to say; but I can say this, which is a source of much comfort, consolation, and gratification to me: Behold the goodness, the long-suffering, the kindness, and the strong parental feeling of our Father and God in preparing the way and providing the means to save the children of men—not alone the Latter-day Saints—not those alone who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial law, but to save all. It is a universal salvation—a universal redemption. Do not conclude that I am a Universalist, as the term is generally understood, although that doctrine is true in part, like the doctrines or professions of all professing Christians. As was stated yesterday by one of those who spoke, when he was a Methodist, he enjoyed a portion of the Spirit of the Lord. Hundreds of those now present have had a like experience in a greater or less degree, before they joined this Church. Then, when we inquire who will be saved, I answer, All will be saved, as Jesus said, when speaking to the Apostles, except the sons of perdition. They will be saved through the atonement and their own good works, according to the law that is given to them. Will the heathen be saved? Yes, so far as they have lived according to the best light and intelligence they had; but not in the celestial kingdom. Who will not be saved? Those who have received the truth, or had the privilege of receiving it, and then rejected it. They are the only ones who will become the sons of perdition, go into everlasting punishment, and become angels to the Devil.

[TokyoBayer]

As an update to this thread, John Dehlin, the soon-to-be Ex-Mormon postcast host will finally face his “court of love” this Sunday. It’s a foregone conclusion that he’ll be ousted. In one very disappointing move, the Mormon church is requiring all participants to sign a statement that they are not recording the session. If John and his wife refuse then they will not be allowed to participate in the kangaroo court.

In a clever strategy, John is framing his upcoming court in terms of his support for LGBT rights, as well as equality for women and other ideas radical to white men in their 90s.

The church is doubling down on anti-gay measures. While they are finally conceding that Utah needs to have laws to prohibit discrimination against LGBT people in the work force and housing (and only in those areas), they are tying that support to a measure allowing people to discriminate against LGBT people for religious reasons. They announced this in a whinny news conference last week where they complained about the hard rap Mormons and other religious people get for “following their conscience.” (cite if from CNN, I didn’t link because it’s an auto start video.)

“When religious people are publicly intimidated, retaliated against, forced from employment or made to suffer personal loss because they have raised their voice in the public square, donated to a cause or participated in an election, our democracy is the loser,” said Elder Dallin Oaks, a member of the church’s Quorum of Twelve Apostles.

“Such tactics are every bit as wrong as denying access to employment, housing or public services because of race or gender.”

The Mormon church is one of several faiths to complain about religious freedom coming under attack in recent years. Catholic bishops and Southern Baptists have sounded the alarm as well.

Oaks cited several examples on Tuesday, including:

The mayor of Houston subpoenaing sermon notes last year from pastors who opposed an equal rights ordination. The subpoena was later dropped.
Public pressure on a Mormon gymnast to step down as an Olympic liaison in 2011 because he had supported California's Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in 2008.
In 2014, Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich was forced to resign because he had donated money to support the passage of Prop 8. 

In an OpEd entitled Mormon Church Wants Freedom to Discriminate, the NY Times opines that

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints held a rare news conference in Salt Lake City today that is drawing headlines about a supposedly new, accommodating stand on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights.

The Mormon Church is now willing, news accounts says, to support anti-discrimination legislation in the realms of housing and employment. In return, all the Mormons want are laws that “protect religious freedom.”

We already have that. It’s called the Bill of Rights. So what is the church really after?

The news conference, said D. Todd Cristofferson, one of the 12 apostles of the church, was held to raise concerns about “the increasing tensions and polarization between advocates of religious freedom on the one hand and advocates of gay rights on the other.” Another apostle, Jeffrey R. Holland, said church leaders were calling for “laws that protect faith communities and individuals” against unfair treatment.

That’s fake “war on religion” speak. What they want is legal permission to use their religion as an excuse to discriminate.

The Associated Press explained: “Mormon leaders still want to hire and fire workers based not only on religious beliefs, but also on behavior standards known as honor codes that require gays and lesbians to remain celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex. The church also wants legal protections for religious objectors who work in government and health care, such as a physician who refuses to perform an abortion, or provide artificial insemination for a lesbian couple.”

Substitute the word “black” or “Jewish” or “Catholic” or, say, “Mormon” for LGBT in these statements, and everyone would be outraged.

Mormon leaders have an extremely difficult time talking to the outside world, and seem to be determined to shoot themselves in the foot, and to maximize the negative comments floating around on social media.

Fellow apostle Dallin H. Oaks also praised the church’s website and efforts on behalf of gay members.

But Oaks, a former Utah Supreme Court justice, wasn’t sure apologizing for past language on homosexuality would be advisable.

“I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,” Oaks said in an interview. “We sometimes look back on issues and say, ‘Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,’ but we look forward and not backward.”

For the record, I tried it and that doesn’t fly with my wife.

In a follow up interview a day or so later, he clarified that this is because “[he’s] not aware that the word ‘apology’ appears in any of the scriptures.” Youtupe link to this question and answer on the interview.

If one wonders why he sound more like an attorney than a “personal representative of Christ,” that’s because his former profession bleeds though.

(That excuse also didn’t fly at home. . .)

In the battle of public opinion, the establishment didn’t do well last week.

[kaylasdad99]

@TokyoBayer

As an update to this thread, John Dehlin, the soon-to-be Ex-Mormon postcast host will finally face his “court of love” this Sunday. It’s a foregone conclusion that he’ll be ousted. In one very disappointing move, the Mormon church is requiring all participants to sign a statement that they are not recording the session. If John and his wife refuse then they will not be allowed to participate in the kangaroo court.

Sounds like an unconscionable condition under duress, to me. If he could contrive to record the proceedings, I’d be in favor of him signing the statement and ignoring the condition.

I wouldn’t consider him morally bound by it.

[Claverhouse]

@TokyoBayer

In a follow up interview a day or so later, he clarified that this is because “[he’s] not aware that the word ‘apology’ appears in any of the scriptures.” Youtupe link to this question and answer on the interview.

Just googling shows he accidentally misspoke.
*When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him !”

So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, ‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him.*
Genesis 50:15-21

[Sage_Rat]

@TokyoBayer

They announced this in a whinny news conference last week

Frankenstein: Frau Blucher
Horses: <whinny!>