Mormonism

Great Debates
1

In exchanges with Monty and in particular with Snarkberry, I have found some interesting insights into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In particular, Bill (Snark) advanced the whole “spirit body” concept in partial justification of certain of his views where they were opposed to mine.

I propose a debate on the subject of the beliefs of Mormons and their origins. I suggest the following ground rules:

We are exploring what Mormons believe and where those doctrines come from. We will do this with respect for their religion. But we will not be trammeled by that respect. I.e., I will not slam or flame Monty or Bill for an assertion, but will attempt to disprove it, either logically or by probability (e.g., if no evidence of Nephites has been found by archeologists, that’s pretty good evidence for the non-existence of Nephites). Much the ground rules that we used successfully in exploring the origins of some (FDS) Christian beliefs.

I think that the fact that we’re working with 19th Century history and parallel fact vs. revelation may give some insight into the open questions on 1st Century Christian origins.

==============
Now, I personally feel that the Joseph Smith Hill Cumorah story is the result of either (a) an extended fraud by Smith and others, or (b) evidence that the quality of psychoactive drugs in Palmyra NY has declined
over the last 150 years or so. Obviously, Monty and Bill believe otherwise. I’d like for them (and any other LDS posters) to make the cases for their beliefs and then for the rest of us to explore them critically (but courteously).

2

Okay, but here are two additional rules, Polycarp:

  1. I will only answer one question per day and will need time to research things I don’t know about as well as I should. Monty would definitely make the better debater.

  2. No “flip-flopping” allowed–that is, don’t change the subject until everyone’s satisfied that it has been covered sufficiently.

I don’t claim to be an expert on Mormonism. Heck, I’m not even an active Mormon. So if my answers are wanting, it’s due to long years of inactivity and forgetfulness. I really hope that other Mormons will carry the load, especially if/when I’m wrong.

What’s your first question?

3

Sounds cool to me, Bill.

Howzabout starting with a biggie: origins of the LDS sacred writings (other than the Bible, that is!). Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants.

Would you (plural: Monty’s in on this if he wants, or others) post where they’re supposed to have come from, as best you understand it, together with a summary of the history they report? Key points, to me, are how Jos. Smith Jr. got them, evidence for their validity other than his word, and why LDSs believe that they are inspired, holy writings. Is there any “degree” to how you regard them, e.g., the Bible and BoM stand “above” the D&C in importance to LDS people? Finally, are things like the recent Proclamation on the Family considered on a par with the D&C teachings? If so, are they included with them?

4

Polycarp: Well, I wrote an essay on the subjects above, but just didn’t feel right about doing so, so I stopped. The truth is, I’m a wicked man and have no business speaking for God or His church. God has made that abundantly clear to me, that he doesn’t want a hypocrite speaking for Him. Time and time again I’ve had to learn this lesson. To paraphrase a D&C verse, the Lord says, “If you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach.” I don’t have the Spirit with me due to recent wickedness on my part, so I will have to bow out of this discussion.

Hopefully Monty or someone else can give you the information you seek, but I just don’t feel right about it at all. I’m sorry.

5

This is your captain speaking, we are embarking on a short detour to Cuba. Please stay seated for just a few minutes then we’ll do us a U-turn.

Snark - I’ve watched you for a couple of months now, am always interested in what you say and think you treat everyone very well. I just wanted to voice a concern I have for you. Obviously, this is none of my business, and I hope that you take it in the caring spirit it was intended. If it offends you, please just ignore it and don’t let it ruin your day.

You oft times seem very upset by something you have, or perceive you have done. God seems to be a trifle angry at you, a lot, and I was just wondering why you take every little thing to heart. Surely, your God loves you enough that all of the little mistakes you make aren’t that big of a deal. I don’t believe for a second that your God thinks you’re so wicked that you can’t share what you feel about these Mormon questions. If it’s how you feel, then it is a sincere thought.

I guess I just wanted to say that lots of people on the SDMB care about you and you should try to not be so hard on yourself.

making a U-Turn back

trisha

6

I agree with jazzmine, to uturn again. Snark, don’t be so hard on yourself.
You always give informative answers, even when answering with your own opinion.
They are a sharp contrast to the other Christians who sometimes attack your religion (noone in this thread). They are also a sharp contrast to some Mormon people (Is that the correct way to phrase that?) who defend themselves rabidly.
I have learned more about your church from you Snark, because you answer in a gentle way without jumping down people’s throats. I believe thats an honorable way to tell people about your beliefs and I can’t believe that could possible hurt any God.

U turn this suck right back.
Oh, no theres Cuba.

pat

7

I would like to hear what you have to say Snark. I do not see this as teaching so much as sharing and answering questions.

If you answer and Monty or someone else disagrees then they will post and we can continue the debate.

Please help us get going.

Jeffery

8

I can’t quite get a mental picture from this, but I’m sure it would be amusing. . .

Rich

9

I completely agree with the posts above, Bill. When I saw, first your OP in the Pit, and then the second post above, I tried to e-mail and found that your e-mail is undeliverable. God forgives you whatever it is that’s on your heart; it’s up to you to forgive yourself.

Now post! :slight_smile:

10

You guys make it very hard to say “No.” :slight_smile: Thanks for your kind words. I guess I can give you the basic facts without being blasphemous or offensive to God. It’ll have to wait a little longer, though, as other people are using this computer as well. I may not be able to get on again until this evening, but I’ll finish writing the post on paper.

Y’all are really nice people.

11

We ARE the sweetest things since chocolate, aren’t we? Hey, has there ever been a group hug in Great Debates?

trisha

12

ORIGINS OF MORMON SCRIPTURE:

The Book of Mormon is a translation by Joseph Smith, Jr. of an ancient book made of golden plates. These golden plates were written (or abridged) by four major ancient authors: Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, and Moroni. Although it isn’t intended to be a history book, it abridges a period of time from 600 B.C. to 421 A.D., as well as a period dating back to the Tower of Babel times, of some of the inhabitants of ancient America.

Joseph Smith translated these plates through the gift and power of God after the angel Moroni told him they were buried in a hill (Cumorah) nearby his home in Palmyra, New York, circa the 1820’s.

The Book of Mormon contains a record of the visit of Christ to the ancient Americans (Nephites and Lamanites) after His resurrection in the Holy Land. Thus, the Book of Mormon’s subtitle is, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” It was written for our day, not for ancient times, and its chief purpose is to convice both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.

How did Joseph Smith get them? The account is told in the preface to the BoM, which can be ordered free online from http://www.lds.org/ .

SUMMARY of Book of Mormon history:

About 600 B.C., a colony of Israelites is led by God out of Jerusalem, warned by the Lord that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. They cross the ocean and land in America, where they split into two different societies, the “Nephites” and the “Lamanites.” Mormon, a prophet/historian, makes an abridgement of their doings, and the BoM is mainly filled with spiritual discourses rather than simply history. There is an account, however, of some of the wars between the two societies.

There is the usual persecution of the righteous by the wicked, and at the time of Christ’s death back in Jerusalem, many wicked Nephite and Lamanite cities are destroyed. Christ appears a little later on and ushers in an era of peace. But the society doesn’t last and is corrupted later on, long after Christ leaves.

The Nephites, due to their wickedness, are eventually all hunted down and destroyed by the Lamanites, and the BoM ends with the writings of Moroni, Mormon’s son. Moroni, under inspiration, bfuries the golden plates in a hill called Cumorah, and that’s how the BoM ends.

The “D&C” (Doctrine and Covenants) is a compilation of many of the revelations of Joseph Smith and some other prophets. The “Pearl of Great Price” contains the Book of Moses (“An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith” circa 1830), the Book of Abraham (translated by J.S. from an Egyptian papyrus), Joseph Smith–Matthew (from Joseph’s translation of Matthew 24), Joseph Smith–History, and the 13 “Articles of Faith.”

Why the LDS consider these books inspired writings:

Through personal revelation, anyone whose heart is right can receive a testimony that these books are true, through study and fervent, sincere prayer. If you have a BoM, check out the last book in it, the “Book of Moroni,” chapter 10 verses 3-5, to find out how to go about getting such a personal testimony.
This is getting too long. Other questions will have to wait.

13

Thanks, Bill.

OK. Clarifications requested on what you’ve posted:

  1. Jesus appears to the Nephites and Lamanites after his ascension. Does it tell how he “arrives” and “leaves” (in quotes to avoid making any assumptions about what he does)? How was he received?

  2. From my many-years-ago reading, I thought the Nephites were parallel to the Jews: basically “the good guys” as opposed to the Lamanites though quite subject to sin themselves. Both groups were wicked?

  3. Moroni told JSJr where the plates were. IIRC, he took them into heaven after they were translated. Correct?

  4. I vaguely remember something about witnesses to the plates. Is there any external evidence of their earthly presence that would be acceptable to a skeptic? I grant that you believe the word of JSJr (and witnesses?).

  5. What happened to the originals from which the PoGP was produced? Are they preserved somewhere?

I hope these questions don’t sound obnoxious. As you know, I’m highly skeptical regarding Mormon doctrine but willing to keep an open mind and listen.

14

Thank you Polycarp. You mentioned a couple of things that I would like to know also.

Where are the plates and any of the other original items that were translated by Joseph Smith? I don’t feel any angst at all toward Mormonism, but as with anything else, I want to see the originals.

15

Polycarp wrote:

Ascending and descending, several times IIRC. He was well received, as the more wicked people had all been destroyed.

There were times when the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites, and vice versa. And of course it varied from individual to individual, from time to time. The Nephites tended to be more civilized in general, but they really degenerated towards the end.

AFAIK, yes.

There’s the “Testimony of the Three Witnesses,” who saw the plates and heard God’s voice telling them that they were translated “by the gift and power of God.” Then there’s the “Testimony of the Eight Witnesses,” who actually handled and “hefted” the plates. Both groups testified to the world that the plates were real. As is always the case, faith in God is required before a testimony can come. God deliberately withholds evidence so we can exercise faith in what He has revealed.

My mother tells me that she thinks the Book of Abraham papyrus was burned in a museum fire. The other parts of the PoGP were probably written by a scribe taking dictation from Joseph Smith, AFAIK, and are probably preserved somewhere in SLC. Again, AFAIK–I could be wrong.

There was a sealed portion of the golden plates that JS was not allowed to open or translate, so there is definitely more scripture to be revealed and translated. But first we have to live by and remember the messages of the other scriptures and prove ourselves worthy of receiving more.

16

Did these testimonies happen on a specific date? Are there non-Mormon records of the testimonies?

“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell
17

I refuse to be involved in this discussion.

That is, unless the wording of the OP in this thread is changed just a tad. As it is, the avowed intent is to disprove the LDS church.

I will say the following, though:

Your method described in the OP is not fair as you’ve stipulated that not being able to provide proof of a civilization which was wiped out (giving the BoM account) is proof that it never existed. That doesn’t necessarily follow. For more information on that particular bit, check out the “Truth Table” in any decent textbook on Logic.

How about applying your criteria to the mainstream Christian churches? The Bible, as it stands now, has physical impossibilities and self-contradictions…doesn’t that prove “all those churches must be wrong?” How about proving to me that Jesus was resurrected? Can you show me the body? No? Then, obviously, there was never a body to be resurrected!

Of course that last bit was sarcasm, but I hope you take my point.

Now if you’re merely interested in the mechanics or the history of the LDS beliefs themselves, Bill has already provided excellent source documents and web sites for those. Go look at those or call the missionaries or even read some of Leo Rosten’s writing (“The Religions of America”) to find out what the LDS, the JW, the Christian Scientists, and a whole host of others, believe and practice.

That’s it. Bill; let me know when this thread takes on a realistic/serious discussion sort of mode. Otherwise, I’ll not return to this.

18

Monty’s right–the intent of this thread is specifically to “disprove” Mormonism, according to the OP. I won’t participate in a game of “Scribes and Pharisees” either, come to think of it. It’s one thing for people to be curious about someone’s religion, and quite another for them to be actively trying to disprove it. I won’t cooperate with this kind of thread. Thanks for the clarification, Monty.

Here are some very good sites on Mormonism that you might want to check out, if you’re seriously interested in it:

Official Home Page of the LDS Church

All About Mormons

And of course a good web search engine will bring up many, many hits on Mormonism as well.

19

I cannot speak for PolyCarp, but for myself, I know that not I nor anyone else is going to change Snark’s or Monty’s or anyone else’s mind on their beliefs of Mormonism.

I seek not to disprove it but to learn more about it. I know that I can go to those web sites and read what they have to say, but they are not as interactive as you guys are. If I have a question about an area, I cannot likely get clarification from the web site (if it is not spelled out the way I am thinking), but you guys can likely clarify it.

If you choose not to post any more that is fine. I understand Monty’s points about proof and all.

Do whatever you guys think is right.

Jeffery

20

Anytime you get into a religion in a board, someone’s going to try to attack it. I certainly will attack any and all freely. I admit the OP seems a bit confontational, but just because someone is trying to disprove something you believe is no cause to keep your mouth shut. Look at the evolution v. creationism threads; who do you have more respect for, Jedi-667 or the people who actually answered Jedi’s questions while he ran off in a snit? And Snark was certainly willing to take ARG on, although that might have been because it was a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. :wink:

Polycarp will question you, yes, but I doubt he’ll be a jerk about it. As you have noted, Monty, his religion has some questionable bits in it too, so if you liked you could zing him right back if he is holding your religion to a higher standard of proof than his own. After all, you are the recipient of the most recent revelation.

I would like to hear what both of you have to say; you just can’t get the same feel for a religion from websites and reading the BoM than you can from talking to an actual believer. But if you choose not to post I will respect that.

“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell