So gays commit sinful acts because they aren’t Temple Married, and can’t get Temple Married because they are gay. That’s some catch. So why doesn’t the church evolve with the times and allow gays a temple marriage?
Although it’s not spelled out in the historical record, I think it’s pretty clear why Fanny and Joseph’s “marriage” didn’t last. Namely, Emma Smith wasn’t too thrilled with her husband sleeping with their 16-year-old maid!
This is a fair question. We don’t have daguerreotypes of Joseph and Fanny going at it, but it seems pretty clear they had an affair (or a clandestine polygamous marriage). That doesn’t square at all with the image of Joseph Smith that I was taught in church. It seems improbable to me that God would choose a man to restore His only church on Earth, and settled on one that couldn’t even keep it in his pants.
But honestly, I still believed in the Church after discovering Fanny Alger. I even still believed after finding out about the women Joseph Smith married who still were married to other men. It was a long, slow process of discovery that eventually chipped away at my faith.
If you want to discover a lot of fascinating historical stuff, then research the early days of the Mormon church. However, be warned it’s not good for the long-term health of your testimony.
Wow. This kind of derailed suddenly.
April, may I suggest you take a look atthis video? It is an interesting presentation presented at the Utah Valley University Mormon Studies Conference this spring. It is a LDS presenter speaking to an LDS audience. So you shouldn’t have to worry about bias. It presents why and how LDS members leave the church. You may be surprised by the presentation. Most former members are not angry at the church. But they do feel a lot of anger coming from church members.
For my part I had 35 years in the church. I served a 2 year mission. I have served as a Zone Leader, Elder’s Quorum President, Sunday School President, First Councilor in a Branch Presidency, along with dozens of other callings. I know where of I speak, when I speak about the church.
And I hold no anger about the church or the members. Almost all my family is still in the church. I wish them nothing but good will. I think the church is wrong. And I have plenty of evidence to back it up. But if it works for you, good for you. As it is I have plenty of conversations with current members. For the most part we avoid the topic of religion. I would never try to de-convert anyone. But I am always happy to answer questions when asked.
I would strongly suggest you get to know me, before you declare me to be biased and negatively slanted against the church. I am not your enemy. If you find I am providing any false information, please let me know. But I don’t screw things up very often. And when I do usually one of the other ex-Mormons is quick to correct me. As a group we tend to prize knowledge.
sex outside of marriage keeps you out of the temple, there is no difference if it is homosexual or heterosexual sex. Sex is sex. I had sex before I was married and had to repent before I could marry in the temple. Only marriage between a man and woman is permitted in the temple. Having same sex attraction isn’t the same things as having sex. I don’t assume someone who identifies as homosexual is having sex, anymore than I assume someone who identifies as heterosexual is having sex. I just assume they are attracted to one sex or the other. You don’t have sex unless within the confines of a marriage between a man and woman if you want to be married in the temple. God still loves you if you do, we all do things which aren’t perfect and we should try to fix it if we think it is wrong and if it keeps us from doing the things we want. I wanted to be married in the temple so I fixed it. If I was still having sex outside of marriage I wouldn’t want to be in the temple nor would I feel comfortable there.
A better question is why would a homosexual want to go to a Mormon temple? What would they get out of going to the temple?
That’s an odd question coming from a person belonging to a faith which sends missionaries to all corners. Shouldn’t everyone hope to find salvation inside the Mormon church?
My question is why can’t gays receive a temple marriage? Since ideas and processes inside the church are evolving, why not that one?
April R I read your post from the Words of Wisdom. I have a perhaps foolish question to ask, but I am hoping you can answer it. In verse 9, hot drinks are not for the belly or the body; does this include soups and drinks like cold teas or coffees (if decaf)? I ask this truly as a question of ignorance and because I do not want to offend LDS friends by serving something they will feel uncomfortable either refusing (because it is served by a friend) or eating then not being able to enter the temple.
I normally serve ice tea at meals. I have been known to serve soup in mugs as an appetizer; as well as hot cider around Thanksgiving. If I need to have alternatives when hosting LDS friends, please tell me now before I offend this nice new couple who moved in last weekend, who I hope will become friends.
I’m obviously not April R, but… hot drinks have been later declared to be coffee and tea. So coffee and tea are out always regardless of temperature. And other hot drinks are acceptable including soup, (non alcoholic) cider, and even herbal tea (which properly are infusions having no tea leaves in them).
As an interesting aside. The Word of Wisdom, was not originally taken as a commandment, and in fact the revelation itself specifically says it isn’t a commandment. And as has been mentioned Joseph Smith himself was known to like a strong drink from time to time.
It was only over time that it was voted in as a commandment by the membership. First, Hyrum Smith (Joseph’s brother) had the leaders vote and agree to follow it. And then later it was voted in by the general membership. But it took decades before it reached its current level of importance. There were still high church leaders in the early 20th century who regularly broke one or more parts of it. Most famously the senior President of the Seventies, J. Golden Kimball, who enjoyed a bit of coffee in his cocoa and a bit of Irish in his coffee.
For the same reason people who drink, smoke, gamble, etc are not allowed in the temple until they have gone through the process of repentance. The Church views extramarital sex as sin, simple as that. As far as I know, and I know at least one individual this is true for, same sex attraction in no way keeps you out of the temple, extramarital sex does. He admits to having attraction to men and never saw himself being able to enjoy a heterosexual relationship, but he was a devout member of the Church and met a woman he confided in who accepted him and they got married in the temple because they waited until marriage to have sex. They have 3 beautiful children and he says he has very satisfying sex with his wife despite being aware of his continued same sex attraction. Since the only marriage that can take place in the temple is between a man and a woman, then a marriage between the same sex cannot be performed in the temple.
Thems the rules. There is no discrimination involved, if you want to enter the temple you follow the rules. You break the rules and still enter the temple because you kept it secret, then you have to answer to God yourself. I know there are plenty of people who have gone through the motions in the temple because they wanted to please friends and family or were too scared to admit they were having doubts about their faith, and that did more harm than good to them. They weren’t ready for the temple, didn’t understand or believe the services and ordinances performed there and ended up leaving the church more often than not.
I think you’re going to want to use a different word here. What you are describing is certainly discrimination.
I appreciate that. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I think because the majority of my interactions with ex-members has been negative I assume they will all be, mainly because the more vocal ex-members are the anti-Mormons who are hellbent on proving everyone wrong, not the ex-Mormons who just want to live their life and not bother themselves with changing anyone else. I am a convert yes, but I don’t seek to convert anyone else. I provide information and let people decide form themselves. I would probably be a horrible missionary because I don’t think you should try to convert people, just give them the information and let them decide. Or maybe that would have made me a great missionary, I don’t know. I am hoping to serve a couples mission after me and my DH retire though. That would be so awesome.
When the ex-members were pointed out to me in this thread, I went and reread the posts and realized the ex-members were the most respectful and mature and not the ones making false and slanderous and just plain condescending remarks. I apologize for getting so defensive so quickly!
Absolutely right,
However, drinking tea or coffee inadvertently does not condemn anyone. I drank a energy drink the other day and didn’t realize one of the ingredients was black tea. My eternal soul is still ok.
The one that always gets me is when members chide me for drinking caffeinated soda or energy drinks. Yes the spirit of the law is to abstain from any substance that could cause dependence or over indulgence, but it isn’t sinful so I will enjoy my diet Dr. Pepper, tyvm!
A more accurate way to put it would be, God is no respector of persons, all must follow the same rules. In that way there is no discrimination because if you are following the rules you are on the right path, if you are not, no matter who you are, you are not going to be allowed in the temple.
J Golden is one of my favorite Church figures of all time. I really like Dallin H. Oaks too. Sherry Dew is a rockin lady as well.
If some church rules “evolve”, such as those concerning polygamy, blacks, hot drinks…then why haven’t the rules which discriminate against gays evolved as well? It seems as though the only rules which evolve are those which embarrass the church or might result in costly fines or lawsuits.
Right, but the rules aren’t the same for all people. That’s why it’s discriminatory.
Joseph Smith was sealed during his lifetime to several women who already had husbands.
Emma actually threatened to take a plural husband at one point, although she backed down when Joseph had his “revelation” threatening her with violence* if she didn’t comply with the new order of things.
*Specifically, that “if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.” It’s right here in the scriptures.
But it is the same. I guess I am not understanding. If I follow the rules, no matter who I am, I can enter the temple. It* is* the same for all people. The behavior is what keeps you out of the temple.
I just wanted to leave this with y’all since I have to get the kiddos ready for bed, because I have sincerely enjoyed this thread and the people I have discussed things with:
“I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.” - Dudley Field Malone
Thanks for helping me be a more knowledgeable person
That is a nice little juicy bit of info and would certainty make Church history more interesting, but it is unfounded
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=10&num=2&id=290
there are always at least two sides to every story. Would have been awfully interesting though if that was a provable fact, polyandry is rather uncommon. The link I provided is an excellent read, though a much less juicy version of JS plural marriages.
I suggest you read your cite more carefully. (Actually, I suggest you read the book it is reviewing, In Sacred Loneliness.)
Your very own cite goes on to say the following: “In the discussion of Compton’s prologue, we subtracted four wives for lack of documentation. Three of these were married women, which means that Joseph Smith was sealed to eight women with living husbands.”
Polyandry was a very real thing. Not “unfounded” as you suggest. Joseph Smith’s sex life was plenty “juicy.” Anyway, if you want the official Mormon apologetic view of Joseph Smith’s practice of polyandry, you need read no further than your cite. There’s a lot of hemming and hawing about we’re not sure of this and maybe that.
The fact is that we don’t know everything about Joseph Smith’s extensive sexual and marital relations. We know he married a lot of women, some quite young (14 and 16) and a couple pretty old. We know he definitely had sex with some of them. And we know that 8 to 12 of them were married to other men at the time. Make of that what you will.