Right – they are in the christian tradition but they not a part of (small-o)rthodox Christianity.
Mormonism is about as close to Christianity as Islam is in that it copies some elements but then completely twists it-Mormonism is theoretically as polytheistic as Hindooism for example.
They are harmless heretics, I only wish that they were more clear to potential converts that they they are different from mainstream Christians.
Being raised as a Roman Catholic and having spent almost a third of my life in Utah… I can say for a fact that outside religions speak of it as a cult. Just as people inside the Mormon church speak of outside Christian religions as ‘false’
I’ve got to ask – when does this come up in a typical Mormon’s education? I’ve never asked them directly, but at one time or another all of my Mormon friends (and they’re completely inner sanctum LDS members. Hell, one of them had a temple marriage) say they’ve never encountered the teaching. It’s usually in their “FAQs about Mormonism” blog posts – and they’re quick to talk about any other old crazy belief people really care to bring up. I’m not saying the belief isn’t present – I’ve heard enough talk about it that I’m convinced it has to come from SOMEWHERE – but that’s literally the single thing I’ve never heard a Mormon, even a very honest and frank one, talk about. In fact, even deny such a belief exists.
As for the OP, I’ve had friends who would VEHEMENTLY say Mormons aren’t christian. But my Presbyterian church 6-7 years ago when I was a teenager thought they were Christian but just a bit different.
I don’t know how other Christians feel, and I don’t know the churches’ official position on it.
But for me, the Mormon church is not a Christian religion, but not a cult, either. They’re their own separate religion.
Westboro Baptist Church is a hate group. The only thing that separates them from the KKK is that to the best of my knowledge, the WBC hasn’t actually killed anyone.
I don’t know what your friends said exactly, but I suspect they were using weasel words or you misinterpreted them. This belief stems from Mormonism’s founder Joseph Smith. Now, it is important to note that Joseph Smith’s lectures have NOT been canonized as capital D Doctrine, but it’s hard to believe that he didn’t know what he was talking about since he invented the whole damn religion.
[QUOTE=Joseph Smith]
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.
[/QUOTE]
As for when a Mormon first encounters this belief, it’s hard to say. I can’t say that I remember a time when I DIDN’T know it. It’s just part of the cosmology of Mormonism. If what you say about your friends is true, I guess they’ve been trying to downplay this belief (a la Gordon Hinckley) as of late.
I used to be co-chair of the Education Committee at a Newman (Catholic at university) group in Salt Lake City. Part of my job was lining up speakers on church and doctrinal issues. I was flabbergasted to learn that mainstream Christian groups (I got to deal with other religions that Catholic) didn’t consider Mormons “Christian”. The LDS sprang from mainstream 19th century protestantism, uses the King James Bible*, and uses terms and concepts that not only are comprehensible to other christian groups, they’re pretty hard to understand outside a christian concept. It seems to me that by any rational sysatem of taxonomy they’d have to be labeled “Christian”.
Of course, people are free to do their naming on their own basis, that need not be taxonomic. But a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian would wonder why the hell Christians didn’t consider Mormons “christian”. Muslims might not. I was equally surprised to learn that SLC Muslims had a special gripe against the Mormons because Joseph Smith declared himself a modern-day Prophet, and most Muslimks consider Muhammed “The Seal of the Prophets” – the last one. It’s the same reason a lot of Muslims have a problem with Baha’i.
*Although Joseph Smith himself composed a new and correlated translation of the New Testament, the LDS doesn’t use it as a standard.
From this atheist’s POV, theists arguing that their particular flavor is the real deal is pretty outlandish. Just sayin.
As Erdosain said, odds are pretty good that they used some sort of weasel words to try and work around it. It is a pretty core belief and it beggars the mind to think that someone could be in the church for long and not encounter it.
For example, here is a quote from the study guide used in the new members sunday school course. This is expected to be taken by new adult members in their first year in the church. “The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will pass by the angels to our exaltation. We will become gods.” - Gospel Prinicipals p 245
Likewise it is pretty clear in the LDS scripture. When you read the Book of Abraham (which should come up every 4 years in Sunday School) it is explicitly clear there as well. Chapter 4 for example refers specifically to Gods as sub-creators under “The LORD.” And the first scripture a member is likely to memorize in seminary (the youth education program) is Moses 1:39 “For behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Afterword the teacher would be expected to explain how these words differ in LDS theology from common usage. Namely that as spiritual beings we are already going to live forever. And in this verse immortality means to live in heaven. Because to live outside God’s presence is a form of death. And “eternal life” means exaltation or to become a god. When I was a church goer it was also frequently mentioned in quotes from many (modern) prophets, both in sunday school and the prime worship service, sacrament meeting.
And finally you can look here and read a typical academic apology on the subject. This was published by the Maxwell Institute which is the current leading research and apologetic group for the church. You’ll notice it is being hosted by the Institute’s owner BYU, which is the churches university system.
Like I said it beggars the mind to imagine that an adult could make it through a year without hearing the doctrine. It is a core doctrine and even used as a selling point to the members on a regular basis.
Another ex-Mormon here.
1) Are Mormons Christian? Absolutely. They’re not mainstream, and they reject the authority of all other Christian groups. The Book of Mormon describes mainstream Christianity as “the whore of the Earth” and “the great and abominable church” (although those titles may apply specifically to Catholicism). In the scriptural Pearl of Great Price, Jesus speaks to Joseph Smith and tells him that all churches are false. IIRC, Jesus uses the word “abomination” to describe all churches [ETA: see verses 18 and 19]. So historically, Mormons had not really attempted to play nicely with mainstream Christians. They believe that they are the One True Christian Church and that all others are preaching “the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture”.
But as an ex-Mormon, I still consider myself to be an ex-Christian. I had believed Jesus to be the son of God, the Messiah, the Creator, the Savior of our souls, etc.
2) Is Mormonism a cult? Sure, if you cherry-pick your definition of cult. It’s a (somewhat) new religious movement with a (somewhat) low population that (somewhat) attempts to insulate its followers from the evil influences of the outside world. It was founded by a very charismatic guy, and its followers today have an obsessive adoration for the current leadership. The organization is obsessed with money and is more engaged in amassing wealth than in actual charity.They love recruiting, and there is extremely strong pressure to indoctrinate kids before they become capable of rational thought.
But really, what religion or ideology isn’t a cult by those subjective standards? Calling them a cult is just useless name-calling. Sure, they started it (see item 1 above), but it’s still more of an insult than a word with any objective definition.
3) Do they teach/believe “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become”? Hell yes. Gordon B. Hinkley may deny it a dozen times, and they call him the Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and the mouthpiece of God. And yet they still believe the couplet.
My Mormon friends often had casual discussions about “when I get my own planet/universe, I’m gonna…”. Joseph Smith taught the doctrine pretty clearly (well, not the part about planets/universes, but the part about becoming gods). As have dozens of prophets, hundreds of apostles, and millions of Sunday School teachers since then. I don’t know how long it’s been since the couplet was printed in a lesson manual, but it is still very much a part of Mormonism.
I was a missionary. When we taught people that God was our Father, we taught that it was literal and that a person may become a god just as a kitten may become a cat. New members used to have an entire lesson titled “Eternal Progression” dedicated to the theme.
A couple weeks ago, a close friend posted on Facebook that she was struggling with some cognitive dissonance (not the phrase she used, but it was a textbook definition). She was struggling to reconcile the couplet above, which she quoted, with the equally doctrinal “God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” I pointed out that the couplet has been denied by The Prophet Gordon B Hinkley, but she was unimpressed. Then another of her friends gave her the real answer, which was too deep and sacred to be discussed on Facebook. I have no idea what his justification was, but she is now able to comfortably believe two mutually exclusive doctrines.
I was taught the opposite. The Bible says that Jesus gave complete authority to set up the earthly Church to Peter, thus establishing the papal lineage. Protestants who don’t buy into the papal lineage concept still (broadly) agree that Peter was given the authority to establish the early church. Mormonism circumvents that authority and the papal lineage and is well separate from the Church’s teaching in those regards.
Not that anyone I talked to was especially worried about Mormonism either, mind you. But no one considered it to be in the same family as the Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical “teach the Bible” churches.
That’s not a problem for Mormons. They believe that John the Baptist visited Joseph Smith to give him the authority to baptize, and then Peter, James, and John visited to give the higher authority. Plus all sorts of “keys” were given by several undead visitors when Joseph hid behind a curtain in the first LDS temple.
I’m sure it’s not. It was a problem from a Catholic perspective (at least last I heard a Catholic perspective on it).
“I don’t know where people get this ‘become a god’ or ‘get your own planet’ thing. I’ve never heard anything like that from the church.” Is pretty hard to bend. I guess the operative words may be “in the church” implying that nobody ever OFFICIALLY said anything.
That’s what they posted on Facebook? Wow, that’s a pretty dishonest statement, in my opinion, unless they joined the Mormon church like a week ago. Or are deaf. Or slept through every Sunday School lesson ever.
So, liars or narcolepts, IMO.
OT: most (or at the very least, many) Unitarians do not think of themselves as Christians. One Sunday, the interim minister at my Unitarian congregation asked for a show of hands for how many of us felt that Unitarianism was a Christian denomination. Out of about 80 people, he got no votes.
That’s just my congregation, of course, and Unitarians are notoriously diverse. For the record, I don’t think we’re a cult, either. Most non-cynical definitions of a cult imply at least some aspect of coercion and/or ideological homogeneity. Unitarians can barely agree on lunch.
Ok. I’m not sure how this is the opposite of what I said. Unless you’re saying that your education specifically focused on LDS as a distant stranger to ‘civilized’ denominations while mine took more of a “look, who cares if it’s a cottonmouth or a rattlesnake, just don’t fucking touch it, ok,” attitude.
I was referring to this…
I was taught that Mormonism was not a Christian denomination. I.e., the opposite of what you said.