Well, then, that probably would have been a good thing to say. Not everyone is going to understand that ‘circumventing papal lineage’ is jophielspeak for ‘not a christian denomination’ as opposed to ‘a really whacked out christian denomination’
Right. Sorry, boss :rolleyes:
As for when a Mormon first encounters this belief, it’s hard to say. I can’t say that I remember a time when I DIDN’T know it. It’s just part of the cosmology of Mormonism. If what you say about your friends is true, I guess they’ve been trying to downplay this belief (a la Gordon Hinckley) as of late.
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If I remember correctly, the quote from Joseph Smith here is from the King Follett discourse; the only time I have ever encountered it in a church setting was in my college Institute class (for non-mormons, this is a kind of not-for-credit-unless-you’re-at-BYU Mormon religion class) that was taught by a fellow student who was interested in the subject. I have never seen that particular quote in an actual church setting (although I wasn’t paying a whole lot of attention when we did Teachings of Joseph Smith several years back; maybe it was there).
For people my age (35 or so), especially those who are a little better educated, it’s one of the random bits of the cosmology, as Erdosain says, that’s just always been there and that we almost make jokes about. For younger people, I think it’s much more de-emphasized – Gordon B. Hinkley, in many ways, I think, tried to steer the LDS church to a more pan-Christian sort of aesthetic, including greatly toning down the emphasis on stuff like this.
Jragon,For your Mormon friends who have never encountered the teaching, I wonder what they have to say about the hymn “If you should hie to Kolob”? Have they never, uh, wondered what that hymn was about?
These days, at least in my ward, I don’t think the “eternal life” stuff is necessarily talked about as becoming a god (I mean, all the older adults understand that’s what it means, it’s just not talked about), although the word “exaltation” is used a lot without a whole lot of explicit definition. I don’t know what new members are taught, but I got the general impression there was a lot more Families Are Together Forever stuff and less about exaltation.
I’m pretty sure Mormonism teaches that Peter had the keys to the church and therefore the authority to establish the early church. It just postulates the papal lineage ended waaaaay earlier than most Protestant churches: Mormonism teaches there was the Great Apostacy in the 200’s or 300’s or something like that, so that the creeds and all are supposed to be abominations and the true authority disappeared from the earth etc.
I don’t doubt that Mormonism has its own reasons for why it qualifies as Christian. I was just stating why other faiths (namely Catholicism but I could see the argument applying to others in a more limited fashion) wouldn’t consider them to be Christian. I’m not personally too worried either way (I wouldn’t list them myself but I don’t care enough to worry over what they call themselves) but I was just addressing the OP’s basic question.
Plus, all this trying to sell their beliefs as being different than they actually are is quite unsettling to Protestants, too. It comes across to them as a type of sheep in wolf’s clothing: lie about being just like a protestant church, and, once you’ve accepted that and gotten socially entangled, trick you into believing the wrong stuff, too.
It’s also a bit similar to Gnosticism–that only some people have the right to know the truths of God, and everyone else has to get a more palatable version. And such thinking was firmly rejected–twice by protestants who though that the Roman Catholic church was doing the same thing again around the Reformation.
I poked around the Vatican website and, although there’s no grand mission statement saying Mormons aren’t Christian, in a paper on baptism (a topic Erdosain mentioned), they say…
Bolding mine. So the Catholic Church does not consider Mormons a fellow Christian church in the manner it does mainstream Protestant faiths and holds Mormons to the baptism rules governing people who are not Non-Catholic Christians. From this, and lacking a more definitive cite, I would say the official stance is that Mormons are not considered Christians by the Catholic church.
Note that this isn’t the same as calling Mormonism a cult with the negative weight that word holds.
I said the same thing up in post #29. The Catholic Church doesn’t consider Mormons to be Christians. And neither do Protestant denominations.
No problem. I was just looking for something (quasi) official.
That’s very interesting, Jophiel. I didn’t realize that Mormons are held in such a different regard by Catholic doctrine than other non-Catholic Christians.
(It’s also interesting to me, although I could have guessed this, how different the baptism rules are in Catholicism and at least the brand of Lutheranism I’m familiar with. I am almost certain I read in some book on Luther’s teachings (possibly the catechism? I wasn’t gonna take communion in some church without knowing what it was I was agreeing to, in detail) that baptism was valid as long as it was done in the name of the Holy Trinity – it didn’t, in particular, have to be someone who was ordained who performed the baptism, as I remember ordinary church members could do it if no pastor was available and it was an “emergency.” Though I have no idea if our pastor, who said it was okay that it was a Mormon who did it, was actually talking real doctrine or whether he wasn’t quite cognizant of what it implied.)
But even an atheist can try to see which Christians have a correct interpretation of the Bible.
I’m not an atheist, and not trying to speak for them really, but the above only makes any kind of sense if the Bible was amenable to a single, clear, coherent, obvious interpretation. History (i.e. the diversity of historical and extant interpretations) appears to have proven that it isn’t.
Canon varies.
Mormons are obsessed with WHO does the baptism, which most other religions are willing to overlook in emergencies. Anyway, I’m not familiar with all Lutheran denominations but I’d be surprised if any of them had a church-wide policy of accepting Mormon baptisms. I suspect yours was accepted by your pastor on an individual case basis.
Eastern Orthodox priests aren’t supposed to recognize inter-faith marriages, let alone officiate them, but I found one willing to marry me and my wife even though as a Mormon I am little better than a voodoo priest to the Orthodox church. Butts in the pews are more important than doctrinal purity.
Even if there’s no “correct” interpretation, I’d say anyone benefits intellectually and socially from understanding why significant portions of the population feel/believe the way they do.
My experience with Lutherans suggests that if the doctor were to spill his or her beer on the baby during delivery, that would count as baptism. But the ELCA seemed pretty loose about everything.
As does the belief as to which books comprise the Bible. It’s not a simple answer.
As an ELCA Lutheran myself, yes, our synod is pretty liberal. Compare ELCA Lutherans to Missouri Synod Lutherans, or Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Lutherans, and you’d be in for a surprise…those synods are far more conservative, and seem far closer to Southern Baptists or Southern Methodists in their views (at least to me). (Michele Bachmann is a WELS Lutheran, IIRC.)
As explanations go, this is about as accurate as it’s going to get. There are a few other things that separate the LDS view from the traditional Christian viewpoint. Paid ministry being one, eternal marriages being another. But those who believe that the LDS Church is not a Christian church are very mislead.
Mormons certainly have a much smaller paid ministry than most churches but all the higher level men get paid (apostles, seventies, mission presidents, and temple presidents). Not to mention the thousands (tens of thousands?) employed by CES (Church Education System).
I’m not saying people who work full-time shouldn’t get paid, but the myth of an unpaid clergy is mostly a reassuring simplification Mormons tell themselves.
Barring some official divine ruling on what constitutes a “Christian church”, I’d say anyone who doesn’t believe that Mormonism qualifies probably have their own reasons for it that don’t require ignorance or “misleading” to be valid.