Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero

[Raygun99]

@Anduril

@cosmosdan

This argument failed in the other thread and it fails here. There is nothing that can be reasonably interpreted as insensitive for planning to build a Community Center with a worship area in that location.

I really think you are giving them a pass just because they’re espousing a religious belief. Here’s why:

Let’s say there’s a Nazi party near Auschwitz. Let’s say this is a party that believes that Jews are an inferior race but that they should not be discriminated against. Let’s say they believe that there should be comity between races. They now decide to build a headquarters two blocks from the gas chambers - this will be a place where they will talk about their beliefs about racial superiority - but they will also have a community center open to all. Do you think such an act will be insensitive? Would you think Jews would be correct to express their distaste over such a project while acknowledging that the Nazi party has a right to place their building anywhere?

The Cordoba initiative has every right to place a mosque there. I just don’t think it’s tasteful.

The reason this comparison doesn’t work is that, to the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to separate Antisemitism from Nazism. There is nothing inherently Anti-American about Islam.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Anduril

Let’s say there’s a Nazi party near Auschwitz. Let’s say this is a party that believes that Jews are an inferior race but that they should not be discriminated against. Let’s say they believe that there should be comity between races. They now decide to build a headquarters two blocks from the gas chambers - this will be a place where they will talk about their beliefs about racial superiority - but they will also have a community center open to all. Do you think such an act will be insensitive? Would you think Jews would be correct to express their distaste over such a project while acknowledging that the Nazi party has a right to place their building anywhere?

That would be a brilliant analogy, if it were in any way… well, analogous. Which part of the Cordoba Initiative’s literature do you think is equivalent to “Jews are inferior”?

[blanx]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

That would be a brilliant analogy, if it were in any way… well, analogous. Which part of the Cordoba Initiative’s literature do you think is equivalent to “Jews are inferior”?

“We play pick up basketball on Thursdays.”

I mean, read between the lines, man!

[Dissonance]

@Don123

Accordingly what you, and other Muslim lovers, need to do is get educated before any intelligent conversation can take place.

You are inviting a poison snake into your house and you are way too ignorant to know it. Once you understand the facts about Islam there is no way in hell (assuming your are some what intelligent) you would allow Islam into your town, city, state or country much less allow any of their buildings.

You know, this is the problem. Hating was so much easier back in the day. You could tell who the negros were and thus who the negro lovers were in order to keep them out of your neighborhood. I think there might be Islam in my town and muzzie lovers but I can’t be sure who’s a muzzie and who’s not; why even white people can be muzzies! Do you have any advice on how to identify muzzies Don? I was thinking maybe we could make them all wear yellow crescents or something, what do you think?

[cosmosdan]

Well Fox news , Gingrich and the other fear mongers for profit ought be proud of their spawn
A Protest in lower Manhattanwhere someone was confronted because they thought he looked like he might be Muslim. Listen to this crowd. Now tell me that the Muslims who simply want to worship in peace and have a community center open to the public are the assholes. Tell me that these people chanting “No Mosque Here” are somehow still supporting the first amendment. Yeah, we know you have certain rights guaranteed by law but we’ll try to pressure you into not exercising them because, well, we’re sensitive. What utter hogwash.

This is exactly what I mean by emotional people being whipped into unreasoning anger and resentment by dishonest and irresponsible media. The country is in trouble and we don’t know what to do, so let’s find a target for our anger. Hey look everybody, the Musllims are handy, let’s hate them. All Aboard.

[Anduril]

blanx:

All muslims are equivalent to members of the Nazi party?

Not really. I used the Nazi party as a analogy because I am certain that most of us are in agreement that both the Nazi party and Islam have distasteful beliefs.

Raygun99:

The reason this comparison doesn’t work is that, to the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to separate Antisemitism from Nazism. There is nothing inherently Anti-American about Islam.

That’s your contention. It is also the contention of some that even Sufis cannot separate themselves from the inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah?

Really Not All That Bright

That would be a brilliant analogy, if it were in any way… well, analogous. Which part of the Cordoba Initiative’s literature do you think is equivalent to “Jews are inferior”?

Let’s refer to Islamic literature that divides everything into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”.

[Anduril]

@cosmosdan

Well Fox news , Gingrich and the other fear mongers for profit ought be proud of their spawn
A Protest in lower Manhattanwhere someone was confronted because they thought he looked like he might be Muslim. Listen to this crowd. Now tell me that the Muslims who simply want to worship in peace and have a community center open to the public are the assholes. Tell me that these people chanting “No Mosque Here” are somehow still supporting the first amendment. Yeah, we know you have certain rights guaranteed by law but we’ll try to pressure you into not exercising them because, well, we’re sensitive. What utter hogwash.

This is exactly what I mean by emotional people being whipped into unreasoning anger and resentment by dishonest and irresponsible media. The country is in trouble and we don’t know what to do, so let’s find a target for our anger. Hey look everybody, the Musllims are handy, let’s hate them. All Aboard.

I am against ALL “assholery”. This is a touchy topic and a lot of people are getting emotional. But it doesn’t change the fact that these Muslims are assholes. And moral suasion and pointing out assholery is NOT bigoted.

[wonky]

The RCC thinks women are inferior. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near a women’s shelter.

The RCC thinks gays are inferior. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near an AIDS memorial.

The RCC conspired to hide child molesters. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near a children’s hospital.

I wait with bated breath the explanation why this is just so different.

[elucidator]

…But it doesn’t change the fact that these Muslims are assholes…

And the final irony is this: the variety of Islam practiced and preached by the prospective founders of this center is loathed and despised by the variety practiced by ObL and his ilk. When the imam Rauch accepted GeeDubya’s offer to be America’s ambassador to the moderate Muslim world, he painted a big fucking target on his ass. And he went and did it anyway. And is still doing it.

Bless his heart, he means well. And does it. You?

[cosmosdan]

@Anduril

@cosmosdan

This argument failed in the other thread and it fails here. There is nothing that can be reasonably interpreted as insensitive for planning to build a Community Center with a worship area in that location.

I really think you are giving them a pass just because they’re espousing a religious belief. Here’s why:

Let’s say there’s a Nazi party near Auschwitz. Let’s say this is a party that believes that Jews are an inferior race but that they should not be discriminated against. Let’s say they believe that there should be comity between races. They now decide to build a headquarters two blocks from the gas chambers - this will be a place where they will talk about their beliefs about racial superiority - but they will also have a community center open to all. Do you think such an act will be insensitive? Would you think Jews would be correct to express their distaste over such a project while acknowledging that the Nazi party has a right to place their building anywhere?

The Cordoba initiative has every right to place a mosque there. I just don’t think it’s tasteful.

There is no realistic connection between Imam Rauf and the neighborhood Muslims who want to worship there and 9/11. Your analogy is completely false. That false association is one of the major points of manipulation by the media.
Rauf has consistently spoken out against terrorism and makes continuous efforts to build bridges between Islam and the west in order to avoid future violence. There’s no realistic comparison between them and the majority of Muslims to Nazi’s.
I really don’t know the difference between Nazi’s and the average German soilder during WWII, but it would be impossible for anyone to identify with Nazi’s and claim, “but only the good part” because of the historic and limited significance of that group. Islam is much older and 1000 times more diverse.
You also seem to be implying that all Muslims believe the whole world should be Muslim and that is somehow evil. I don’t believe all Muslims think that anymore than all Christians do. Is it possible for you to be aware of the wide variety of attitudes among Christians and find it likely that that’s also true of Muslims? Do you think most Christians are dogmatic fundamentalists, and Muslims are as well?

[Raygun99]

@Anduril

That’s your contention. It is also the contention of some that even Sufis cannot separate themselves from the inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah?

Which of these un-American practices have they engaged in?

[Anduril]

@jsgoddess

The RCC thinks women are inferior. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near a women’s shelter.

The RCC thinks gays are inferior. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near an AIDS memorial.

The RCC conspired to hide child molesters. They shouldn’t be allowed to build a church near a children’s hospital.

I wait with bated breath the explanation why this is just so different.

Big difference. In the first place, no one is saying that mosques should not be allowed to build anywhere. That’s a strawman that you can stuff where the sun does not shine.

1. The RCC does NOT think that women should be beaten so there’s NO connection to a women’s shelter.
2. The RCC would be “assholic” if they build a church near an AIDS memorial.
3. The RCC should be PROSECUTED for conspiring to hide child molesters. I don’t know about building a church. Their doctrine doesn’t condone conspiring to hide child molesters.

[Anduril]

@cosmosdan

There is no realistic connection between Imam Rauf and the neighborhood Muslims who want to worship there and 9/11. Your analogy is completely false. That false association is one of the major points of manipulation by the media.
Rauf has consistently spoken out against terrorism and makes continuous efforts to build bridges between Islam and the west in order to avoid future violence. There’s no realistic comparison between them and the majority of Muslims to Nazi’s.
I really don’t know the difference between Nazi’s and the average German soilder during WWII, but it would be impossible for anyone to identify with Nazi’s and claim, “but only the good part” because of the historic and limited significance of that group. Islam is much older and 1000 times more diverse.
You also seem to be implying that all Muslims believe the whole world should be Muslim and that is somehow evil. I don’t believe all Muslims think that anymore than all Christians do. Is it possible for you to be aware of the wide variety of attitudes among Christians and find it likely that that’s also true of Muslims? Do you think most Christians are dogmatic fundamentalists, and Muslims are as well?

But this hypothetical Nazi party claims to do the same. They will build bridges between Nazism and Judaism in order to avoid future violence.

[Anduril]

@Raygun99

Which of these un-American practices have they engaged in?

But my hypothetical Nazi has NOT done anything un-American, too.

[Raygun99]

@Anduril

@Raygun99

Which of these un-American practices have they engaged in?

But my hypothetical Nazi has NOT done anything un-American, too.

Your hypothetical Nazi is also riding in on a purple unicorn.

[blanx]

@Anduril

blanx:

All muslims are equivalent to members of the Nazi party?

Not really. I used the Nazi party as a analogy because I am certain that most of us are in agreement that both the Nazi party and Islam have distasteful beliefs.

Raygun99:

That’s your contention. It is also the contention of some that even Sufis cannot separate themselves from the inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah?

Really Not All That Bright

That would be a brilliant analogy, if it were in any way… well, analogous. Which part of the Cordoba Initiative’s literature do you think is equivalent to “Jews are inferior”?

Let’s refer to Islamic literature that divides everything into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”.

I thought long and hard about your post, and my conclusion is, “So?”

While I disagree with your interpretation of Islam, even if you’re right- so what?

Personally, I think that ALL religions are silly, offensive, and pointless. Equally so. The rights enumerated in the Constitution apply to all people. Muslims should be more “tasteful”, to borrow your phrase? Please. American free speech, and freedom of religion ought to be stronger and more resilient than that. Free speech requires toleration of assholery.

I don’t want churches in my neighborhood, because I like to sleep in. But, unless there’s a law, I’m SOL.

[Anduril]

@blanx

I thought long and hard about your post, and my conclusion is, “So?”

While I disagree with your interpretation of Islam, even if you’re right- so what?

Personally, I think that ALL religions are silly, offensive, and pointless. Equally so. The rights enumerated in the Constitution apply to all people. Muslims should be more “tasteful”, to borrow your phrase? Please. American free speech, and freedom of religion ought to be stronger and more resilient than that. Free speech requires toleration of assholery.

I don’t want churches in my neighborhood, because I like to sleep in. But, unless there’s a law, I’m SOL.

That’s precisely my point. I support their right to build a mosque there. I just think they’re assholes. And I’m not bigoted for saying it.

[Anduril]

@Raygun99

Your hypothetical Nazi is also riding in on a purple unicorn.

That’s it? :rolleyes:

[BrightNShiny]

@Anduril

That’s your contention. It is also the contention of some that even Sufis cannot separate themselves from the inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah?

Well why weren’t they contending it when it was time to invade Iraq? When Dubya and Cheney were running around the country telling us that there were good Muslims in the Middle East who could build shiny, happy democracies, where were you and where were the rest of the people who are now popping up to tell us that all Muslims are bad? How come all these other people weren’t down at the White House protesting Dubya when he was telling us that there were good Muslims who could build a democracy? Why aren’t these people running around now demanding that we pull our troops out of the Middle East since there are no good Muslims anywhere who can build a democracy?

[wonky]

@Anduril

Big difference.

Big surprise.

And the difference seems to be, “I’m going to treat Muslims as a bloc and every Muslim will be responsible for any Muslim, but I’m going to treat a Christian sect as if there is nuance and discrete actors within the religion.”

All those people look alike. All those people act alike. All those people are alike.