Did you even read most of the comments in your, um, ‘cite’? Here is an example:
Here is another:
And these things are really expensive in China…they cost (IIRC…you aren’t worth me looking it up) something like double the cost in China as what someone in the US pays for an iPad or iPhone…and they are crap. They aren’t going to be able to sell these things on a wide scale world wide because most countries have laws protecting intellectual property. They will be a niche market outside of China at best…and inside China, my guess is that only the ‘poor’ (elite) will choose to buy Apple knock-offs…the more wealthy (elite) will want the real thing, since not only does it work better, it’s also a status symbol.
Also, seriously…have you looked at Apple’s sales figures for 2009 and 2010? :smack: What am I saying…of COURSE you haven’t looked at them, because you are clueless. Apple’s sales are going through the roof, both in domestic sales and world wide. IIRC, they overtook Microsoft as the largest OS vendor in the world in the last year.
Not at all. I asked a simple question regarding why you were posting a straw man argument. Instead of an answer, I got a poorly written emotional tirade. THAT is a rant.
Error of fact compounded by poor logic. Error: Your post was simply a ressertion of your bilious views that avoided actually answering the question I posed. Poor logic: Your claim is that a specific act must create jobs or it is insupportable, however, that fails on multiple points. The creation of jobs is not the only possible value an act might provide. The lowering of costs of commodity goods so that a larger number of people might obtain them is an action worthy of support.
Now, it can be argued whether the loss of some jobs is worth the cost of lowering prices for all people, but such an argument should be supported with actual facts, (and not cherry-picked factoids that ignore any contrary facts while missing the overall view of the situation).
Actually, I think that the issue is worth discussing in a serious fashion. I am not at all persuaded that every act of off-shoring is in the best interests of either the companies that employ it or the nation as a whole. On the other hand, your wholesale condemnation backed by misunderstood economics and emotional appeals to ignorance fail to persuade me that your position is correct–or even that you understand what you are ranting about.
As to your claims that there is going to be some major upheaval among the electorate that will bring a halt to off-shoring, you are simply delusional. The same people whom you expect to demand unenforceable laws to prevent the importation of products are the ones who have already chosen to support off-shore jobs by spending their money on imports.
Well, with this level of reading comprehension, I can see why you fail to understand anything you claim to have read about economics.
Other posters ridiculed your arguments in GD. You responded by attacking their persons.
Attacking, (even ridiculing), arguments is what Great Debates is all about.
Attacking persons is what The BBQ Pit is all about.
You kept posting the wrong comments in the wrong forum, and now you want to pretend that the Mods were picking on you at the behest of other posters. It would seem that it is a good thing that you do not need written instructions to breathe.
Oh, really? Comments like “How old are you?” in the middle of a debate aren’t considered personal attacks here. It sure would be if you actually said it to someone… that is, if you actually knew anyone who’d tolerate your presence long enough to say it to.
Don’t lecture me about reading comprehension when you guys don’t even understand that something like that is taken by most people to be a personal attack.
Odd. I mocked and ridiculed you before for posting this, and yet you post it again.
So now, all you have to do is answer one simple question: If Apple currently produces an ipod in China for $100, your analysis suggests they could make it in the US for $55. Why don’t they produce it in the US and pocket the extra profit?
YOU think it’s a tirade. In reality it means that you should look in the mirror when you talk about reading comprehension. Physician, heal thyself.
Ugh. This is like debating someone who asks “which door is the cat behind?” and when you throw the door open to show them the cat standing there they come back and ask “but which door is the cat behind?!”
Offshoring takes jobs out of the country. As in, jobs that used to be done here, are now done elsewhere. For offshoring to be a net positive for America it has to create more jobs than it sends abroad. Ergo, it is logical to ask… what jobs have been created by offshoring?
Of course you could just say “well, duh, foreign outsourcing doesn’t create jobs” and we can leave it at that. But you won’t, because you realize I just pointed out that we lose jobs when we allow offshoring to happen.
But that doesn’t matter to you. Nothing these people go through matters to you. The only thing you can come back with is “but prices are cheaper!!!” But prices AREN’T cheaper - because wages are not keeping up with inflation. But I’ve cited that before and everyone here is too stupid to be able to understand that fact. It just doesn’t compute with you guys. To you, it’s impossible for prices to outpace wages when jobs go overseas. Everything is cheaper, and in the SDMB side-real universe, that’s all Spock wrote.
Your off-base arguments combined with your collectively callous attitude toward the working class is why the defense of offshoring has such a low standing in society, and why opposition to offshoring is now at 86%. But I’ll get to qualifying that opposition below.
Error: poor reading comprehension on your part. The creation of jobs is not the only possible value - and I never once said it was. I do say that it is by far the most important issue when you are talking about international trade. Much more important than low prices… because unless you live in emacknight’s universe where everyone gets a severance package and can go forever without a job while flying to Spain while not burning through their funds, after 6 months without a job you’re very likely to be out of money. Then what good is Wal Mart to you? What are you going to buy their cheap crap with then? Monopoly money?
I’ll give you a historical example of why you’re so incredibly wrong. China produces a ton of lowest-price consumer goods. Fat lot of good their low prices did them in 2008 when our economy tanked and they lost 20 million jobs. High unemployment here means DISASTER for them.
You guys have failed to show that the loss of millions of jobs to offshoring - at least 2-3 million, if you go by the US Chamber of Commerce’s lowball estimate - is worth the cost of lowering prices. But you guys, to the very last man, have done plenty of the same cherry-picking that you accuse me of doing.
The overall view of the situation is most Americans have jobs. The overall view also includes the fact that job growth has not kept up with working class population growth since the end of the dot com crash, neither has wages kept up with inflation. The overall view is America experienced growth during the Bush years; but the contrary fact is much of that growth was fueled by consumer debt.
That’s because you made yet another error here: I have never endorsed a wholesale condemnation of offshoring. In fact I have said numerous times I support ZERO trade barriers with Japan, Canada and Europe. (At which time emacknight and his merry band of intellectual keystone cops trotted out a plan to export goods to the US from China - a plan which almost eclipses the level of genius displayed by Dr. Claw in his war against Inspector Gadget…)
We have foreign outsourcing to Canada and Europe, too - but at least they do some in-sourcing to us. Far more than Asia or Latin America; and they treat their workers like human beings, to boot. Plus you don’t get too many knockoff products as a result of stolen intellectual property from those areas - certainly not compared to China.
Hint: People stop shopping at Wal Mart when they have more money to shop elsewhere. You’re putting the cart before the horse here. How many rich or middle class folks do you see at Wal Mart?
Made in the USA becoming more popular with consumers, overall, as of 2009 (mind you, this was closer to the DEPTHS of the recession): (although the article attributes this to the poisonous nature of Chinese crap goods)
Note the advantage of buying American / European:
“The model of buying fewer items, but of higher quality, is similar to the European model, she said. Europeans drive smaller cars, live in smaller houses and have smaller wardrobes.” <---- And Americans are seeing the value of this, too.
Now… you think my talk of an upheaval against offshoring is delusional? Have you not been outside lately? There are waves and waves of anti-offshoring bills coming out of states all over the country, from California to Ohio and beyond. What has stopped these bills is a handful of Republicans fighting the will of the people. And the US Chamber of Commerce and their lobbying.
We are already ready to punish companies who send jobs overseas. We SANK Gubernatorial candidate Meg Whitman and Senatorial candidate Carly Fiorina in California for, among other things, being net deporters of American jobs. They did not get up on television and say “offshoring is good for America”. We the people here paid up to see ads on TV showing Fiorina bragging that “maybe these jobs shouldn’t be in America”… why? To humiliate her.
You do NOT, as a politician, get on television and say “I think offshoring is good for the economy.”
Ok, fine. You’ll accuse me of ranting. You believe I’m delusional. Fine. Let’s break this down simply for you. You go ahead and run for office and say you are against laws that slow the bleeding of jobs overseas and see for yourself how popular you are and how delusional I am. You go ahead and do that.
This was the question. Nothing about cats or doors. All you have to do is show that someone promised that offshoring would create jobs. Can you do that? Or would you like to rant about an unrelated topic?
Please phrase your answer in the form of an answer, preferably linking to a person that promised outsourcing out create jobs.
Oh, I’m sorry. Is that what you call it when you slander yourself with your kindergarten-level understanding of economics!
The only way you will ever mock and ridicule me is if, after all this, you manage to show me paternity papers proving me liable for bringing you into this world. I’d have to cut my balls off as penance, reducing me to the level of merely twice the man you’ll ever aspire to be.
You’re appealing to authority again. “If Apple does it, it must be right.” Your definition of mockery is quite strange to real people - most people define what you wrote above as a mockery of you.
I explained this before. Apple does it because they are, in fact, short-sighted. This is not uncommon in business. Look at how short sighted the financial industry was. And the Big Three automakers when they built all those gas guzzlers. (I’m sure you need a citation for that; just like when someone tells you night follows day and you do your victory dance when they don’t show you a full scientific report proving it [a report you’d never be able to read anyway].) Plus plenty of companies get screwed by China’s rampant theft of their intellectual property. See? I have provided you plenty of examples where entire industries screw themselves by doing short-sighted things. Almost to the point of mass insolvency.
You see, the problem is that corporations only care about amping up their quarterly statements. These corporations exist to do only one thing - provide short term gain for their investors (yes, even Steve Jobs’ holy and righteous company!). If this results in trouble in the future, that’s for someone else to be stuck with. Ride 'em hard, use 'em up, toss 'em aside, RAWHIDE! Corporations are the ultimate psychopaths - they will not apologize for wrongdoing, they will do whatever the law allows them to do to make a buck, and if no one’s watching close enough they’ll stray into illegality, they’ll fight you in court even if they know they’re wrong (and honestly it’s hard to imagine a corporation’s leadership even realizing they’re wrong), and most of all they don’t care who they hurt as long as they can get more money.
Of COURSE Apple would not invest the money to harness America’s 8-fold productivity advantage. Just like they won’t invest the money to automate.
We’re still waiting for you to show us just. one. cat. That’s all. Do you get that when you start multiple threads about how there is a cat behind the door, we ask to see the cat. You have yet to show us one. single. cat.
You once showed us a dog. And twice showed us empty rooms. But never once a cat. Is it too hard for you to show us a cat? Is there really a cat there?
Just show us the fucking cat already. Of course we think you’re delusional, because we all know there isn’t a cat there. Everyone knows but you. Maybe you truly believe deep down in your heart that there is a cat. So then show us. Open the door and show the fucking cat?
Otherwise you’re just another lunatic on the internet with a multitude of unsubstantiated claims.
No, that in no way is logical. That’s your problem, you think that’s what logic is, but you made a false premise: “For offshoring to be a net positive for America it has to create more jobs than it sends abroad.”
So the conclusion you drew is not based on logic, but flaws. That is not how offshoring can be a net positive for America. Never has been, never will be. No one has ever said or promised that it would be. If they have, we asked that you show us. Remember? The cat behind the door? Still waiting to see the cat, in this case the person that promised offshoring would create jobs.
So what? The point of offshoring is not to create jobs, unless you can cite someone that said it was. Is that what someone told you? The point of offshoring is to make products cheaper, end of story. If you had bothered to read the chapter on supply and demand you’d realize that people like lower costs.
No you haven’t. You also haven’t drawn the connection to offshoring. Don’t blame us for your ineptitude. Show us a cat and we’ll all bow before your awesomeness. No cat, no platitudes.
And those people still prefer cheap crap made in China. Of course people will oppose offshoring when the question is, “do you oppose offshoring?” But what do they say when the question is, “do you oppose offshoring if it means everything costs 10 times as much?”
That’s pretty much all you’ve said for the past 5 pages.
Yes, my world is quite nice. And it’s all thanks to offshoring.
And now you’re back to historical examples? Read a fucking economics text book before pretending to know anything about history. Particularly the chapter or tariffs, including the historical examples. Start with the auto industry.
No, low consumption meant they lost business. You’ll notice that has we have jobless recovery their economy is picking up again. It’s not about unemployment, it’s about consumption.
It’s not for us to show, remember, you said there was a cat behind the door, we asked you to show us the cat, now you demand that we prove there isn’t a cat. That may fly on the other boards you troll on but not here. Put up or shut up, or get mocked and ridiculed. Either way is fine.
Up until 2008 and the economy did just fine losing those jobs to offshoring. And then after 2008 jobs were lost completely unrelated to offshoring. And now jobs are returning, again, unrelated to offshoring. Feel free to provide a cite to the contrary.
Wrong, only about a third of Americans have jobs.
So what? What does that have to do with offshoring? Feel free to show us a cat.
But that’s exactly what will happen, and history has proven that. The US government can’t track or control what comes into Canada from China. And then has no way of knowing if that’s being resold into the US.
So? Walmart is simply the poster child for cheap crap from China. You think Sears and Macy’s are any better? What store did you think these people were shopping at?
Then why would you need tariffs? If 86% of Americans oppose offshoring they’ll have no problem buying American. Ditto for “organic food.” If people are willing to pay a premium let them, that’s the beauty of the free market. Your entire tirade has been to suggest the American consumer is too stupid.
Yup, and their is growing popularity in fair trade coffee. So what does that prove? That you’re entire premise is flawed, and action is not needed, nor are tariffs. You’ve failed.
Yup, and when Americans realize that “Made in the USA” turns out to be crap, the brand will be tainted and they’ll go back to buying what’s cheaper. That’s how branding works. Had you read an economics text book you’d know that, it’s discussed heavily. You didn’t just come up with that on your own, we are all familiar with the attempts to trick people into buying American made.
About fucking time. And why were Americans driving giant vehicles? What smaller cars were Europeans driving? Japanese, Korean, and German. Plus that one with the lion on it. They weren’t buying American. Now go look up the history of the US auto industry, focus on the section about tariffs, and look at the result.
Yes, we do.
And are any of them serious? Are any of them passing? Or is it little more than political pandering to the mindless drones that haven’t taken a basic economics course? Are you sure you want to be one of the sheep they’re leading to the slaughter?
Oh, and what about the plutocracy you were so worried about? How do you know they’ll do that they say?
If by punish you mean reward with massive profits then yes, you’re doing a great job.
Yes, you are ranting and you are delusional.
How about you run for office and say you have a plan that will keep jobs in America but also drive up the cost of everything by 500% It’s easy to get elected when you lie.
The way I see it, Le Jackoff is either a) the best evidence we’ve seen yet that African-Americans in the US get significantly sub-standard education in the US, or b) clear evidence that The Bell Curve was right.
Oh, I see - that’s why aggregate R&D spending for S&P500 firms for which data was available was higher in 2008 ($163bn) and 2009 ($166bn) than in 2007 ($154bn), even as we faced the most severe economic downturn in 80 years. Yes, that is clear evidence that US companies are only focused on the short-term…oh, wait, no it isn’t. It’s clear evidence that the better part of you clearly dribbled down your poor mother’s leg at conception.
You do realize that the US has trade deficits with Canada, Japan, and Europe? Just because the trade deficit with China is biggest -now- doesn’t mean squat. Not too many years ago Japan was the biggest source of trade friction for the US. In 10 more years it won’t be China you’re complaining about. It will be India, or Taiwan, or Brazil.
What I find secretly funny is that he apparently wants us to only ‘Buy American stuff’. Uh, hate to break this to you, but that American company setting up factories in China…is still an American company. Or do you only want to buy a) from American companies that b) only make stuff in the US, from c) only supplies found in the US. Good luck with that. So clearly, you’re only buying US-grown vegetables, fruit, coffee, and meat. You’re not buying anything made by Apple, Dell, or any other electronics company. Just how are you connecting to the Internets? Who helped you log on?
Wait. Isn’t this an argument that can be taken to absurdity? Wouldn’t it imply that Apple (in fact any large company) would essentially never invest with a view to the long term?
Given the negative PR of, e.g., Foxconn suicides, Apple would have everything to gain by moving production to the US if it’s so obviously more cost effective. Recall that Apple took its methodical and planned-out years to return from the depths of “Will this be the year Apple closes?” to massive profitability – when at any moment it could have made many of its shareholders happy in the short run by (say) licensing their OSes.It just buggers belief that some random guy on the internet knows better how to be profitable than a company whose market cap keeps growing, and growing, and growing …
In any event, where have you shown that – with all of the confounding factors involved – it really would be more cost effective to bring production to the states? As far as I can tell you simply keep pointing to your 8-fold figure as if it could, bereft of context, be naively extrapolated, and all other factors ignored.
Just to keep with this example: can you explain, within your framework, the massive $1B data center that Apple is opening in North Carolina? Why would they possibly do that? I can’t even make the slightest sense of all this.
It’s a crazy idea and all, but have you considered reporting the post to the Mods? Contrary to popular believe, the Mods don’t read every thread or ever post, and stuff does slip by them (sometimes a sparrow DOES fall without their notice…it’s rare, to be sure, but it does happen :p).
Though, personally, I think the Mods have bent over backwards to accommodate you and give you every chance to shape up. Just about every post you have put in GD has been close to the line, IMHO, though to play devils advocate all these thread seem to blur together (which is no big surprise since you are a one trick pony) and I’ve barely caught myself from posting like it’s the Pit when in fact the thread was still in GD. I think the Mods should move your other active threads from GD to here to preclude people from stepping over the line and responding to you in a way you deserve but that is against that forums rules. After all, there is no ‘debate’ happening, since you are the only one on your ‘side’ who is still responding in the thread, and you are as dense as a black hole. I don’t believe you have ever responded to any question or request for information by any doper with anything even vaguely resembling a genuine desire to discuss and debate the topic…nor for any information that actually backs up your myriad silly assertions.