Most common reason to be Pitted Appears to be Dishonesty?

[Spice_Weasel]

Yes, but there were more posters in general, most of them pretty chill, so it seemed like less of a big deal.

But yeah people have always thrown down in the Pit. The specific issues people are arguing over may have changed but I don’t think the nature of the Pit has - except, perhaps, we may now have coordinated efforts to get certain people banned. It feels more petty than it did before, in a way.

I’m rarely personally invested in Pittings of other posters and that hasn’t changed for me. I’ve seen the threads smearing you and while I probably disagree vociferously with you on certain issues, I’m really not bothered. I’m right in the middle of my views changing on a lot of subjects so this may be a contributing factor.

One of my closest friends diverges significantly on many political issues and even my hot-button topics (like LGBTQ stuff). I figure the worst case scenario of us being friends is he learns more about our POV. And I love him without reservation. But it’s worth noting that voting for Trump was against his principles and he (a minister) lost funding and church members because he wouldn’t rubber stamp people voting for someone so unlike Christ. He may not know a damned thing about trans people or the horrors of denying people abortions, but he’s got more integrity in his little finger than most people I know. And those are conversations we can and do have, without name calling and this that or the other.

I do wish it were more like that for more people on more issues. I think there’s a mentality that if we don’t attack this person, we are condoning their beliefs. While I’ve had trouble mentally controlling my anger toward Trump-loving relatives, when I actually see them I’m just happy to have them. I’m also a pragmatist. I know they are hopeless without exposure to other points of view.

That’s just me, though. To be honest, I’ve been part of two rather extreme movements, fundamentalist Christianity and left - wing radicalism, and in both cases I really couldn’t whip up the level of hate required to sustain the outrage.

[Guinastasia]

@UltraVires

@Guinastasia

Honestly, anyone who thinks that just being able to avoid calling someone names means treating them with respect…well, I’d love to live in your world.

It gives the appearance and that’s all we can do. You have every right to dislike or even hate another poster, but in a civil society you don’t say things like that when they can hear. You can hate your boss and you can call him names at home, but it makes little sense to say that you can only do it in the break room.

Really? So comments that are racist, sexist, hateful, homophobic, or just bigoted in general are some how “respectful” because they haven’t called anyone names? I don’t think so.

Your boss can treat you like dirt, but as long as he doesn’t call you a “bitch”, he’s respecting you? We’ve had posters who’ve been absolutely disgusting, but as long as they stayed within the rules, they managed to avoid being banned.
Hell, we once had someone who said it should be legal for him to fuck children!

Look, some people don’t like the Pit – I get that. BUT…it’s not like you’re forced to post there. And again, there’s still hostility, bullshit, nastiness and all kinds of crap outside of it. So the idea that somehow getting rid of it is going to make everyone all nice and polite, and stop being so nasty is really freaking naive.

[DocCathode]

My name is DocCathode*, and I endorse this message.

*Well not my actual name, but you know what I mean.

Oops, I was referring to Guinastasia’s post

[DocCathode]

@UltraVires

I think that bleating “racism” is a lazy argument, but have no problem with an attack the post not the poster rule.

I disagree that calling a racist a racist is lazy or bleating. When somebody posted “Defend white supremacy, I dare you!” we had an influx of white supremacists. They were racists.

[UltraVires]

I don’t remember that thread, but AFAIK, on this board, it is permissible to talk about any subject you want, right? I was told that for years, but now we have a limited set of topics that are forbidden. Fine.

But, so there is a thread to defend white supremacy and white supremacists show up? Okay, fine. Of course these defenders are racists, they are assholes. They are the worst that humanity has to offer. So you can choose to ignore them, you can call your spouse over to your laptop and say what assholes these people are, or you can debate their arguments.

How does it help anyone or anything to have a Pit just to pile on them? Not that I feel sorry for them, but what purpose does it serve? To show how much we hate racism? I don’t think anyone doubts that–well, unless you are using the new and improved definition of racism where arguing about a specific date for a holiday is racism, but that is a separate issue. You can show how little the white supremacists mean to this board by destroying their arguments.

[DocCathode]

You seem to think we can either PIt them or debate them. I prefer to do both

[UltraVires]

Okay, but to come full circle, it is not only white supremacists that get Pitted. And this whole discussion is about why the Pit is unnecessary and hostile to new members, your entertainment preferences notwithstanding.

[DrDeth]

@thorny_locust

Except that you appear to want to define any mention that a post has racist / bigoted implications as an insult. So the entire subject would become non-discussible – except that people who wanted to recommend behavior or policies that have the result of damaging people for their race or ethnicity would be allowed to do that; but everyone else would be forbidden to point out the likely negative results.

Of course not. You can always respond to a racist post with facts and cites, and you can even mention “that post sounds racist to me”. It is now, and has always been totally discussable. Attack the post, not the poster. It is simple.

You just can not call the poster a racist, except in the Pit. Where- it does no good.

@Guinastasia

Really? So comments that are racist, sexist, hateful, homophobic, or just bigoted in general are some how “respectful” because they haven’t called anyone names? I don’t think so.

No one has said that.

[DocCathode]

@DrDeth

You just can not call the poster a racist, except in the Pit. Where- it does not good.

You seem to have taken it for granted that Pitting is bad and the Pit is bad. Do you have any evidence to support those positions?

[DrDeth]

Yes, my opinion. When anyone says something is “bad” is can only be their opinion. I do not understand the point of this question.

[DocCathode]

I’m making a leap here and assuming your opinion is based on reality. If it is, you should be able to cite supporting evidence. If not, well I don’t know what to do then.

[DrDeth]

You consider the Pit= good, Defend your opinion.

Cites and footnotes.

[DocCathode]

Cute

I consider the ability to Pit white supremacists and other racists, the transphobes who drove away Eve and Una Persson, posters advocating for child molestation to be legal, and a certain guy who had a dream- believed it was a near death experience and was impervious to cites, facts and logic itself to be an EXTREMELY good thing.

I have Pitted a few posters. I’m not sure how many. IIRC I’ve been Pitted once.

I find your claim that the Pit scares off newbies to be falacious. Only the most odious of newbies (and trolls trying to be Pitted) get pitted.

See how that works? You try it now.

[Atamasama]

@DocCathode

I find your claim that the Pit scares off newbies to be falacious. Only the most odious of newbies (and trolls trying to be Pitted) get pitted.

It’s complete and total fantasy.

[DrDeth]

Oh, you called those miscreants names did you? Bully.

After doing so, did Eve and Una Persson come back, knowing that the transphobes had been called names in the Pit?

Did those miscreants reply with apologies, and promises to “sin no more”? Or did they inwardly thank you for the heaping bowl of Purina Troll chow you had served up?

Do you have any idea of how many good posters have been pitted? In some cases, the Pit has jumped all over the OP, saying what a shit pitting that is, but according to you, everyone who has ever been mentioned in the Pit is "most odious of newbies (and trolls trying to be Pitted) ".

I find your claim that the Pit does any good at all (here I am talking about Piting posters, not general rants, which can be very good) to be dubious and wrong.

All it does if feed the trolls and make a certain (low) class of person who enjoys insulting others happy.

As for a cite:The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board

[DocCathode]

@DrDeth

Oh, you called those miscreants names did you? Bully.

You just called me a bully- an insult outside of the Pit.

After doing so, did Eve and Una Persson come back, knowing that the transphobes had been called names in the Pit?

No they stayed away knowing transphobia still ran rampant here.

Do you have any idea of how many good posters have been pitted? In some cases, the Pit has jumped all over the OP, saying what a shit pitting that is, but according to you, everyone who has ever been mentioned in the Pit is "most odious of newbies (and trolls trying to be Pitted) ".

Moving the goal posts. I wasn’t talking about all posters (neither were you) just the newbies you claim are scared away.

All it does if feed the trolls and make a certain (low) class of person who enjoys insulting others happy

You just called me and several other posters in this thread a ‘low class of person’ a second insult outside the Pit.

[thorny_locust]

@DrDeth

You can always respond to a racist post with facts and cites, and you can even mention “that post sounds racist to me”. It is now, and has always been totally discussable. Attack the post, not the poster.

@UltraVires

I think that bleating “racism” is a lazy argument, but have no problem with an attack the post not the poster rule.

I think putting “bleating” in there amounts to attacking the poster; though in this case you haven’t named a specific poster.

How is one to discuss a pattern of multiple posts, in multiple threads, by the same poster, if there’s no place where it’s permissible to talk about the poster?

Because very often it seems to me that what lands somebody in the Pit isn’t that they said x in thread y. That gets them answered with facts and cites; to which they could reply by saying ‘whoops sorry I didn’t know that’ and not saying x again; or they could try to counter with other facts and cites; or they could go away to research the subject and/or think about it, with or without saying so in thread. But I don’t think that’s what usually gets people Pitted.

What seems to me to get somebody pitted is that they said x in thread y, got answered with information and cites by various other people, either didn’t address the information or addressed it poorly; and then went right on saying x, often in different threads not necessarily all active at the same time: not as a matter of coherently arguing why they should be able to say x despite all the information they’ve been handed against it, but rather as if they’d never been handed the information at all.

As far as newbies: different people are put off by different things. I lurked for some time before joining. One of the things I was at first concerned about was the Pit; so I read a batch of things in the Pit, trying to sort out what people were being Pitted for and what happened when they were. I eventually concluded that I wasn’t likely to be pitted* and if I was I could deal with it and if the pitting were really unreasonable I’d probaby have defenders. I also found it useful, to see what sort of behavior was being objected to and what was being defended; because people were able to be explicit, I had to do a lot less guessing about what was considered here to be jerkish.

(I also concluded that it seems to be really important to a lot of people here that they should be able to swear on the boards. I don’t fully understand that; but I don’t know that I need to.)

I was rather more put off by a batch of posts scattered through the boards, mostly outside the Pit, that seemed to me to denigrate people who don’t live in cities.

And as I’ve said elsewhere: if there’s nowhere else to discuss patterns of behavior, then I think we need the Pit.

/
/
/
*haven’t been, yet. Though I suppose pointing out that I haven’t been, in this context, might cause somebody to pit me.

[Guinastasia]

Swearing isn’t banned outside the Pit, despite what some people think.

[Atamasama]

It’s not, but the escalation and/or attack combined with swearing might be.

Compare:

“I feel like shit today.”

Or:

“You’re full of shit.”

(Of course it’s not the swearing so much; saying “you’re full of lies” would be just as bad if not worse.)

[crowmanyclouds]

@UltraVires

{…} And this whole discussion is about why the Pit is unnecessary and hostile to new members, your entertainment preferences notwithstanding.

Really? Strange title for it then.

I mean, I get that some people are one-trick ponies when it comes to the Pit, and they’re acting under the delusion that no one can see that their real reason for opposing the Pit is simply because they can’t stand that they are actually being called out for their opinions.