Most didactic episode of Star Trek TNG

[BrotherCadfael]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

My family has been watching TNG in order. The “Drugs are Bad” speech was definitely a low-point of preachiness; I asked my wife how much money Nancy Reagan had given them to include the speech. But the first season has a ton of other moments of preachiness that I’d forgotten about.

The “Beer Bad” episode of Buffy, a product of the same initiative, at least had the virtue of being somewhat funny.

[terentii]

@Dale_Sams

“You’re not just going to let them kill you are you Kirk? If i put a phaser in your hand, you’ll fight!”…you notice Kirk doesn’t answer.

He didn’t answer because he knew they didn’t have to fight. They were fully immunized and could beat a hasty retreat to the *Enterprise *any time they wanted to.

[Andy_L]

@terentii

Kirk was still forced to interfere in their culture in order to save his ship.

But it doesn’t violate the Prime Directive to interfere with an advanced culture - otherwise, fighting with Klingons would be a violation of the Prime Directive. One version of the Prime Directive (it seems to take different forms) says that even revealing the existence of the Federation is a violation of the Prime Directive - so either the whole Federation is violating the PD by ordering Kirk to take an ambassador to the planet, or the Federation thinks that the PD doesn’t apply to this planet (now there may be another rule about meddling in the politics of another advanced civilization - but that rule isn’t the PD).

[terentii]

@Andy_L

But it doesn’t violate the Prime Directive to interfere with an advanced culture - otherwise, fighting with Klingons would be a violation of the Prime Directive. One version of the Prime Directive (it seems to take different forms) says that even revealing the existence of the Federation is a violation of the Prime Directive - so either the whole Federation is violating the PD by ordering Kirk to take an ambassador to the planet, or the Federation thinks that the PD doesn’t apply to this planet (now there may be another rule about meddling in the politics of another advanced civilization - but that rule isn’t the PD).

Interference is interference, regardless of how developed a culture is. It may have been done in self defense, but Kirk is upsetting a situation that’s endured for hundreds of years, and neither of the two warring cultures will ever be the same again.

Neither was he setting right a situation for which the Federation was responsible, nor was the Federation at or threatened by war. The only justification for interfering in this case is that he was protecting his ship.

[Andy_L]

@terentii

Interference is interference, regardless of how developed a culture is. It may have been done in self defense, but Kirk is upsetting a situation that’s endured for hundreds of years, and neither of the two warring cultures will ever be the same again.

Neither was he setting right a situation for which the Federation was responsible, nor was the Federation at or threatened by war. The only justification for interfering in this case is that he was protecting his ship.

I’m open to the argument that it’s wrong to interfere with a culture, no matter how advanced it is, but not convinced that the Prime Directive says anything about interfering with an advanced culture. And as I said, if the Federation doesn’t want to risk interfering with Eminiar VII, the way to do that is to not order a ship to go there.

[mlees]

@terentii

He wasn’t sent to “clean up the mess,” he was merely investigating the disappearance of cultural observer John Gill, with whom the Federation had lost contact. It wasn’t until the *Enterprise *neared Ekos and was attacked that they knew something was seriously wrong (Gill had established a neo-Nazi regime on the planet).

Cleaning up the mess caused by interfering in a planet’s culture was the theme in a number of episodes: “Patterns of Force,” “A Private Little War” (the Klingons were the interferers in this one), “A Piece of the Action,” “The Omega Glory,” “Assignment Earth” (though this one was more about *preventing *interference), and “The City on the Edge of Forever” (where it was Earth’s history that needed to be straightened out). In each case, Kirk took it upon himself to set things right because the natural order of things had been upset, usually by Earthers.

It was harder to justify in episodes like “The Apple,” “Return of the Archons,” and “A Taste of Armageddon.” Most of the time, Kirk was put into a position where he had to interfere in order to save his ship or members of his crew.

And Gill wasn’t taken away to be punished, like Captain Tracey was in “Omega Glory.” He was shot and killed by one of his disciples turned traitor.

You are correct, and thank you for clarifying the differences.

[terentii]

@Andy_L

I’m open to the argument that it’s wrong to interfere with a culture, no matter how advanced it is, but not convinced that the Prime Directive says anything about interfering with an advanced culture. And as I said, if the Federation doesn’t want to risk interfering with Eminiar VII, the way to do that is to not order a ship to go there.

The Prime Directive supposedly forbids interfering in the normal social evolution of a planet. In pre-warp cultures, this means you cannot even hint at the existence of other worlds. I submit, however, that stopping a war which has formed the basis of two advanced societies for hundred of years is interfering in their normal social evolution as well.

The *Enterprise *was sent to Emeniar VII to open diplomatic relations with it, since it was already known it had a highly advanced culture. It was not known at the time that it was at war with Vendikar, and had been for hundreds of years. Even if it was, that would not have provided grounds for interfering in their normal social development. The Emeniarans were free to accept or reject the offer of diplomatic relations as they wished.

[Andy_L]

@terentii

The Prime Directive supposedly forbids interfering in the normal social evolution of a planet. In pre-warp cultures, this means you cannot even hint at the existence of other worlds. I submit, however, that stopping a war which has formed the basis of two advanced societies for hundred of years is interfering in their normal social evolution as well.

The *Enterprise *was sent to Emeniar VII to open diplomatic relations with it, since it was already known it had a highly advanced culture. It was not known at the time that it was at war with Vendikar, and had been for hundreds of years. Even if it was, that would not have provided grounds for interfering in their normal social development. The Emeniarans were free to accept or reject the offer of diplomatic relations as they wished.

Thank you. That makes sense. Sorry for not understanding your point earlier.

[terentii]

@Andy_L

Thank you. That makes sense. Sorry for not understanding your point earlier.

You’re welcome.

I used the word “supposedly” because even though interference is forbidden, starship captains seem to get away with it a lot of the time.

[Dale_Sams]

@terentii

Can’t leave out the Fountain of Youth, since that was Tracey’s main motivation. That and protecting the Kohms against what he saw as aggression from the primitive Yangs.

Zapping the wounded Redshirt was, however, a bit extreme, yes.

It occurs to me that for a long time I thought Tracey was a little nuts in his assessment of the value of a Fountain of Youth and how the Federation would react…then Insurrection came along and he was right the whole time.