I think leadership ability and creative thinking are just two forms of intelligence.
Who is to say that your definition “People who can think for themselves” is the correct definition?
You can be intelligent in hundreds of different ways.
At least, this is what my social psychology professor told me so it must be true, along with everything that Cecil says.
Beetle99-
A wise man isn’t always quiet.
He just knows when to be.
What makes you think you’re not one of the idiots?
I began this discussion on these boards because I have been really impressed with the exchanges that go on herein. Like I said, I think these forums somehow attract intelligence, much in the same way Cecil’s columns do. Why? Because The Straight Dope is about taking questions, rationally searching out and evaluating evidence. Many people in these forums obviously respect the process of critical thinking, and I have no doubt are acutely aware of the lack of critical thinking by most people, whether they want to voice it blatantly or not.
I don’t discuss this subject in bars or on street corners…usually (unless I am really bored) because it is rare to find a person who can provide an intelligent response. Usually, you will simply get the Homer Simpson you think you are better then everyone else, give you the finger, and “I know what is right, cause it is written in the bible, and it is the word of God…” type of stuff. Perhaps, I was overly optimistic to think even in a forum of intelligent people this subject could be discussed comfortably.
But since I have started it, I’ll keep going until the responses all simply disintegrate into name calling and statements like, “you might know better when you are older and wiser.”
Lux Fiat: “The bulk of humanity will usually respond by tossing you the finger and going about its frustrating, chaotic business.” Yes this is how the bulk of humanity responds to sweeping judgements. It is also how they respond to anyone who says anything they don’t agree with, whether the statement is random or backed up by exhaustive evidence. That is pretty much what this discussion is about.
I am not claiming that the ability to think critically is the only measure of value in a living being. It is also not the only form of intelligence. Yet it IS a form of intelligence and if you would like to talk about other forms of intelligence I would be very interested to hear what you have to say.
I wasn’t even claiming that being an idiot is a bad way to live. I was simply making the observation that most people refuse to think rationally or critically, which makes them, in the absence of any other adequate alternative intelligence, idiots. They mainly use the "I will follow the herd. " mentality (I suppose is a kind of biological intelligence) and in so doing, live a life resembling that of any other instinctive herd following animal, just with more potential.
If I was expressing a value judgement, it was that idiots are bad problem solvers, because they do not rationally evaluate evidence. My gut instinct is that our society is better served by having intelligent leaders but unfortunately morons prefer to elect one of their own.
BEETLE, you appear to be a reasonably intelligent person, and having not personally made value judgments on the intelligence of people I have not met, I will assume that you are, in fact, as intelligent as you appear. Therefore, surely you recognize that you have created for yourself a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anyone who disagrees with you or acts in a manner you personally consider “sheep-like” is relegated to the great mass of idiots, but any one who happens to agree with you (such discernment on their part!) or whose intelligence you personally perceive, is given a pass to the elite class of people who are not idiots.
Let me ask you this: How many true idiots do you run into in your daily life? I’m not talking about people you see on T.V., but your friends, coworkers, fellow students, family, and aquaintences. And I’m not talking about isolated acts of obvious idiocy, which we all commit – I personally walked into wall the other day and broke my toe – but consistently idiotic behavior. If you truly believe you are surrounded by idiots, then I respectfully suggest you take a hard look at your ego, because it may be raging out of control. If you don’t believe that, then I suggest your reconsider your thesis. I also suggest you listen to yourself and realize how you sound:
This makes it sound like you think most people here agree with you but just don’t say so. The evidence of this thread would indicate to the contrary; that very few people agree with you, and they are not afraid to say so.
This makes it sound like you consider yourself of such surpassing brilliancy that you cannot find a person with whom to intelligently converse. Even if you truly do believe this, you might consider keeping it to yourself because it is arrogant, and arrogant is almost universally considered unattractive by most people, idiots or not.
Yes, you were. Even those very few people who with good reason believe they are smarter than 99% of the people around them are reluctant to say so. Again, it is perceived as arrogant and belittling – which it is.
This makes it sound like you consider the only responses of any worth to be those you personally agree with. If this is true, it might go a long way towards explaining why you perceive most people to be idiots.
This is not only arrogant, but patronizing as well. Since the bulk of humanity has not asked for your opinion on “the way they live,” your gratuitous analysis of it might not be appreciated.
Hmmm. Now I’m forced to question your intelligence. The statement “most people are idiots” is a value judgment – there’s no “if” about it and no way to qualify it. If you don’t even recognize that . . . well, then I may reasonably conclude that you are an idiot.
The problem, as pointed out in another thread, is that all systems of thought are faith-based; you cannot definitely prove anything.
You strike upon the problem well; how far should one take faith?
How can one determine “exactly where your evidence falls short”? For instance, I’ve never seen God, never heard Him, felt his presence, etc…, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. Nevertheless, the evidence I’ve gathered indicates that God does not exist, and I should not believe in Him. But wait, my friend says God does exist, he says he’s felt God. So does my evidence fall short, or does his? Or do I withold judgement, saying “I just don’t know”
If I do the latter, then I run into a problem since everything can be questioned and you cannot absolutely prove something is true. So now do I go about life saying “Well, I’m just don’t really know anything”? That strikes me as idiocy.
Everyone has to believe in something. Just because someone has vastly different beliefs than I do doesn’t mean I’m justified in labelling them an “idiot”.
An open mind to the possibility that my beliefs may be objectively incorrect is always necessary for me, but again, exactly how far should this open-mindedness be taken?
This guy reminds me of Side-Show Bob.
How old are you Beetle? 15? 16?
You see, I keep my definition of what intelligence is pretty concise. To paraphrase Socrates “The only true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing.” A wise person recgonizes this, and strives to educate himself.
Beetle, I think that is a fundamental truth you need to come to grips with. Welcome to the Straight Dope.
"How many true idiots do you run into in your daily life? "
I don’t want to debate the semantics of “true idiot”, but most people I encounter fail miserably when it comes to critically evaluating and thinking about any problem. I am not saying everyone. I work in the computer department of a hospital. There are a few competent people here surrounded and hounded by incompetent coworkers…some of whom are severely incompetent and others who are only mildly. For instance there are a couple of doctors who listen to the information provided to them and make well thought out decisions. Then there are those who recommend full knee replacements for patients who have a degenerative illness and are too weak to walk. On those rare occasions I have to sit in a meeting with administrators to discuss some problem, I am confronted with people who refuse to pay attention to evidence and rational solutions (not necessarily offered by me, I usually sit quietly.). In short, yes I run into many very poor thinkers constantly.
No I do not think most people here agree with me. But I would not be terribly surprised if “many” people agreed with the basic premise but are simply reluctant to say so, for the reasons you so eloquently stated. I don’t consider myself of surpassing brilliance, I simply have trouble finding people who can engage in conversation without name calling, beer throwing, or justification based upon the herd instinct. I am not saying I know everything, but it seems to me that anyone who makes an effort to rationally evaluate evidence is already facing long odds in finding many peers. Yes saying this is…arrogant…and yes arrogance is almost universally considered unattractive…so yes you are right it is virtually pointless to discuss this subject in an open forum. But like I said, why stop now.
There have been many valuable and well thought out responses to my comments here, yours included Jodi. Many of these were highly critical of my statements. I was simply stating that name calling and statements like “you might grow wiser someday” are not particularly insightful. I really appreciate that you took the time to comment on some of the substance of what I am saying. I have immense respect for someone who can listen to the reasons why someone says something and can then respond with an intelligent critical response explaining some of their own view point.
The only reason for me to engage in a discussion like this is to try to learn more about life in this wacky world. I stated something I have concluded based upon my experience, arrogant, belittling, and elitist as my conclusion is. And I have tried to explain why I feel this way. Those of you who are taking the time to share with me your experiences and insights into what I am saying and what you personally believe are greatly appreciated.
Ok ok…“Most people are idiots.” Is a value judgement because the term “idiot” has intrinsically negative connotations. Since our culture values intelligence, saying that “most people are not intelligent” will inevitably be taken as a negative value judgement. I was just trying to state that I don’t believe every living being needs to be intelligent to be of value, not even all humans. I find animals and plants to be extremely valuable and wonderful beings. I find children to be wonderful even though they are not as intellectually advanced as adults. I used to work at a vacation home for developmentally disabled adults and the people I cared for there were some of the most beautiful people I have ever known. Some people simply are not well suited to critical thinking and that is ok…at least with me. And of course, plenty of physically healthy adults live unexamined lives yet may have enriching personalities or other wonderful character traits. Nonetheless, people who are not well suited to critical thinking are bad problem solvers. I may like chimpanzees, but I would not hire one to fix a nuclear submarine and I wouldn’t vote one into office. (actually I might vote one into office over some of our human choices…)
Well I don’t know about everyone else but I’m conviced of your brilliance. In fact I cannot believe that you sit quietly at those hospital meetings when you are clearly more than qualified in dispensing medical advice to these myopic medical fops. How dare they call themselves doctors in your presence?! What I don’t understand is why you are not actually running the entire hospital. Nay the entire national healthcare system. In fact, with your brilliant mind you would be a shoe-in for a leader of the entire free world.
Look, Bug. How can we get this through your thick skull so you will understand? People here have disagreed with your sweeping and unsubstantiated ideas. It’s not because we are sheep or idiots as you so elloquently put it. It’s because we think you are wrong. And when we say you are wrong we mean you are arrogantly, blindingly and entirely misguided in your beliefs. And when a bunch of people whom you’ve never met appeal to you to use better reasoning skills and re-examine your doctrine, I think it behooves an allegedly brilliant person such as yourself to stop and rethink your OPINIONS.
So in parting I’ll just ask you this. If you are so brilliant, why do you feel such compelling need to convince the rest of the us of that fact? Alternately, why the need to classify most of us as idiots? I’m no phsycho-analyst but I get the sense that you are a textbook bundle of insecurities, walking around, just looking for affirmation of your illusions of grandure.
Again, Beetle, without questioning your motives, I would like to suggest you think about how you sound:
For many people, I would think consistently receiving this sort of reaction would cause them to question the efficacy of their own communication skills, rather than the intelligence of everyone else.
Well, because you sound arrogant and unattractive – not to insult you, but you’ve acknowledged this.
Surely you realize that they are equally as insightful as the announcement that “all people are idiots.”
But this is not, in fact, what you said.
But this is not, in fact, what you said.
But this is not, in fact, what you said. What you said was:
Most people are very stupid. (“It seems [to me] that the vast majority of humanity consists of idiots.”)
Even people who endeavor to be smart are stupid. (“The few humans who do try to think, fail miserably at the task.”)
I am smart. (“I personally strive to be wise and intelligent…”)
Very few other people are smart. (“Yet in doing so I find myself in a small small minority.”)
If you are truly as smart as you think you are, surely you can see why a conversation such as the one you have attempted to initiate will almost certainly fail. Thank you for your kind words to me, but even if you wonder why you should stop pursuing this, I know why I should stop responding. You either get this or you don’t; either way, good luck.
i have often wondered if i’m nothing but an arrogant a$$hole but it is obvious that my arrogance hasn’t gotten completely out of control. YET.
i guess you like the word idiot.
i’ve worked in a hospital too. heard about a case of a woman needing to have a leg amputated and they cut off the wrong one. wonder how much that lawsuit was settled for?
intelligence and knowledge are 2 different things. some people are better at memorizing and putting up with the BS in school, do the idiotic busy work and get degrees. and they still can’t problem solve effectively.
there is an old sci-fi short story by arthur c clarke i think. it starts with a married couple having worked on the moon for a few years, saved a lot of money and getting ready to come back to earth. everybody tells them they will be returning to the moon. they get to earth and find they can’t get along with most people, life is too aggravating and they return to the moon. in order for a company to pay to send someone to the moon, pay a high salary to induce them to come to the moon, they have to be exceptionally smart and qualified. you end up with a lunar environment of ONLY bright people. can’t get used to hanging around mostly normals any more.
this story was written more than 30 years ago. welcome back to earth.
Dal Timgar
Beetle99 – At the risk of continuing a discussion that appears to be degenerating into a “did so…did not” discourse on your part as Jodi and some of the more patient participants of this forum disassemble your “Most people are idiots” thesis like the silly tinker toy that it is…risking that, does it occur to you that the reason you have such problems communicating with, and understanding other people’s point of view, is simply that you are not very good at communicating effectively with other people?
If your conversational skills are analogous to your writing skills, the high style, Jr. High School Debate/Philosophy 101 conversational format you seem to favor will not serve you well when talking to either scientists, CEO’s or “the common man”. Your childish perception of complex, real world problems as being inherently subject to some optimal solution paradigm through critical “right thinking” is overly optimistic at best and laughably absurd at worst. It is obvious that people have different perspectives on a given solution to a problem for any number of rational and non-rational reasons. Life is messy and complex and getting on with handling the requirements of a given situation may involve any number of predominately sub-optimal choices.
People aren’t “idiots” for muddling through the best they can. Most of us are simply amazed that you don’t “get” this.
I love deep philosophy that comes from the movies!
Now come on … let’s play nice!! Are you sure (s)he’s not a moron?
"Surely you can see why a conversation such as the one you have attempted to initiate will almost certainly fail. "
I think you’ve convinced me Jodi. This may have been far more productive if I had focused the discussion on a particular subject…But as it stands it is pretty going nowhere. I greatly appreciate your time. (BTW I am known to my GOOD friends as the “Arrogant Bastard”)
Astro:
I don’t think there are any easy solutions, nor are there singular solutions, perhaps not even optimal solutions. There are an infinite variety of perspectives and epistemologies, which are thoroughly rational and consistent, yet which conflict with each other. But if you think it is laughably absurd that I think people should actually pay attention to evidence when making decisions, rather then, for instance, simply following the herd or believing what is written in some random book, then feel free to laugh.
If anyone has ever served on a jury, it is fascinating forum for observing and experiencing the critical thinking (or lack thereof) in our fellow humans. My experience is there will be a couple people who carefully examine the evidence and at least attempt to rationally evaluate it in relation to the applicable laws. Some of the rest will make a passing glance at the evidence and or the law and then try to summon the correct answer through the reading of tea leaves. The majority of people on the jury simply wait for the thinkers and sorcerers to debate to an agreement and then they go along with the crowd. In this context, I am comfortable saying most of the people on the jury are idiots, because they are not thinking. I am comfortable saying most people are idiots in general, because that jury is in my experience a microcosm of the real world. Those people who choose to allow others to think for them are “muddling” through the jury experience…and yes I think they are idiots for the way they “muddle” through it.
Most People Are Idiots.
Agreed. Just go to any organized meeting and watch. Take a peek at a riot and it all becomes real clear. Try discussing politics with political fanatics and you’ll get a real good example. Walk through a discount store in the middle of the Christmas shopping season and you’ll bump into a whole bunch, there and out in the parking lot where idiocy reigns supreme.
Go to a meeting of any Condominium Board open to the residents and get a prime example.
Stop in at a KKK meeting.
Visit an NOI meeting.
Observe your local city elections. (HA! HA!)
Intelligence isn’t all that great. Listen Beetle99, you have an abnormal growth on your cerebellum that causes you to perceive things in such a way that you call “intelligent and rational thought.” This mode of perception is no doubt causing you pain and alienation from the rest of your species. As a defense mechanism you are forced to think that this abnormality actually sets you “above” the teeming millions, such so it alleviates the pain. I myself was once in this very same position, but quickly pinpointed the cause and set upon a course of action. I am at present treating this unwelcome tumor of the mind with mass quantities of alcohol. Chin chin.
what do we do about the idiots, Bettle99?
i prefer morons of course, and i think our educational system is designed to produce FOLLOWERS. the morons in authority don’t like thinkers. look what happened to Galileo. check out the movie Amadeus. don’t argue with nuns, they will hit you with a baseball bat. been there done that.
Dal Timgar
KneadToKnow: I actually associate the sentiment of large groups of people being stupid to Aldous Huxley, in the addendum he wrote to Brave New World (called something like Beyond A Brave New World). And surely Huxley wasn’t the first person to say it either, so I’d hardly attribute it to Men in Black.
agree with you. Having seen the results of that here, I would never (again) try to defend it in an open forum; I just don’t have the spine for it. But frankly, on a gut level, I’ve got a lot in common with you.
The mouth-breathers are out there, and there are a lot of them.
And yes, everyone else, I can certainly see your well-spoken points in contention of this. It sounds arrogant, makes me unattractive, is an oversimplified and indefensible generalization. Conceded, on all points. Doesn’t mean I can (yet) help feeling that way. But like Beetle99, I appreciate the efforts of those among you that made an honest effort to illuminate the opposing position.
Also, strangely, I don’t agree with the theory that individuals are routinely smart, while the masses are dumb. I’ve had to spend a lot of time over the years in close proximity to only one or two other people at a time (most often standing a military watch), and only rarely found that, one-on-one, they were an improvement over the herd mentality. Call me a cynical a**hole, but sorry, there it is.
Chin up, Beetle. Not everyone’s against you.