Obviously not. Thanks for the heads up, though.
And I DO teach my kids what to do in an emergency. Spare me the condescension, please.
I don’t have kids, but I probably wouldn’t allow a nine-year-old to wander around the city by himself/herself.
Having said that:
Does it really make sense to allow the choices you make for you and your family to be dictated by Hollywood’s exaggerated portrayals of city life? If I did that I’d never board any train or bus in L.A., since they’re always being hijacked and wired to explode if Sandra Bullock lifts her foot off the gas pedal for even a minute; and then trains are always derailing and crashing through station walls into the streets, and Tom Cruise is going to force his way into a Blue Line train, after it has left the station, and come after me with a gun. I know these things happen, because I can cite the films in which I saw them. I’ve had it up to hear, I tell you, and I’m going to write an angry letter to the MTA.
To be honest, I think I’m afraid of bedbugs these days than of crime.
Why is it that when your argument or your preferred version of events is contradicted by media stereotypes, you are gung-ho about blasting those stereotypes and questioning the mental acuity of the people who believe them, but when your version of things happens to accord with the media stereotypes, you suddenly adopt a wide-eyed credulity regarding the relevance of Hollywood movies and 25-year-old news stories?
Jesus.
Are you really that ignorant of how much New York City has changed in the 25+ years since the Goetz incident? New York is now consistently among the safest big cities (often THE safest) in the United States, and its per-capita crime stats compare favorably with many smaller cities.
Here are citywide stats covering the last two decades, taken from the website of the NYPD
1990 1995 1998 2001 2009
Murder 2,262 1,181 629 649 471
Rape 3,126 3,018 2,476 1,930 1,199
Robbery 100,280 59,733 39,003 27,873 18,596
Fel. Assault 44,122 35,528 28,848 23,020 16,757
Burglary 122,055 75,649 47,181 32,694 19,421
Remember, too, that this isn’t just Manhattan; it’s all five boroughs: Manhattan; Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, and Staten Island. That’s about 8.4 million people.
Now, let’s put NYC up against Minneapolis for 2009. Minneapolis stats taken from this Excel file:
Homicide Rape Robbery Assault
NYC 471 1,199 18,596 16,757
Minn. 19 361 1,623 1,814
Remembering that New York has about 21 times the population of Minneapolis (8.4 million v. about 400,000), here’s the per capita count, with figures given for crimes per 100,000 population:
Homicide Rape Robbery Assault
NYC 5.6 14.2 221.4 199.5
Minn. 4.7 90.2 405.7 453.5
New York is, by this measure, slightly worse than Minneapolis for murders, but considerably better for rape, robbery, and assault. A quick glance at the stats for St. Paul suggest that the per-capita figures wouldn’t change very much even if we included both of the Twin Cities.
There a probably times and places when it might still be a little risky to ride the subway, but that’s usually on the more remote reaches of the subway lines, and most often late at night. The fact is that, for the most part, the people on the subway are regular people going to and from work, or tourists making their way around the city. Sure, there are sometimes a few people who are clearly homeless and/or a bit mentally unstable, but the simple fact is that the subway is, for the most part, a perfectly safe place. Part of the reason is that, in a city as big as New York, there are always people around, and the presence of crowds often acts as a deterrent to the crime and antisocial behavior.
But at least you hadn’t been misled as far as the skyscrapers were concerned.
Amazingly enough, I actually understand what Dio is saying. We’re all products of our environment and upbringing, and we’re naturally wary (or even scared) of “foreign” environments.
I would have been very hesitant to let my kids on a NYC subway when they were under ten years old. But I did allow them to wander off into the fields or woods for hours at a time with no cellphones, just as I did as a child. They were in comfortable and familiar territory. But they were not trained to deal with large crowds of people in big, confusing tunnels.
Many of you big city folks would freak out about cattle, porcupines, snakes, bears, thunderstorms, and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers in the fields behind my house.
Please understand that those of us who are not familiar with cities are equally concerned about perverts, gangs, grumpy lawyers, muggers, subway accidents and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers around your house.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:66, topic:551188”]
Amazingly enough, I actually understand what Dio is saying. We’re all products of our environment and upbringing, and we’re naturally wary (or even scared) of “foreign” environments.
I would have been very hesitant to let my kids on a NYC subway when they were under ten years old. But I did allow them to wander off into the fields or woods for hours at a time with no cellphones, just as I did as a child. They were in comfortable and familiar territory. But they were not trained to deal with large crowds of people in big, confusing tunnels.
Many of you big city folks would freak out about cattle, porcupines, snakes, bears, thunderstorms, and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers in the fields behind my house.
Please understand that those of us who are not familiar with cities are equally concerned about perverts, gangs, grumpy lawyers, muggers, subway accidents and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers around your house.
[/QUOTE]
My daughter gets to run on 110 acres of wooded ozarks and creeks and swimming holes, often entirely nude, and is also at home in the city…
Best of both worlds.
Yes.
I agree with the sentiment, but letting a five year old fly a plane without a co-pilot seems a bit excessive.
Nice.
Okay, so she had some help from the flight attendants, and was mostly focused on her DSI…
Yes, we are crazy about safety today. There is a book “Last Child in the Woods” that also deals with this subject, arguing that part of the reason that we have kids who have never been in the woods is our fear.
Author’s website: http://richardlouv.com/
One chapter covers our fear of the bogeyman.
My 7 year-old goes to the park in our neighborhood alone. My 14 year-old flew roundtrip with multiple connections to the UK from California. At 15 he was in New York on the Subway. I have no issue with giving my boys more and more distance on the leash.
Would I let my younger one on the subway at 9? Sure - if he had been on it before, and it was during regular hours, and he had a cell phone on him.
My 11 year-old son took the city bus to school and back for a few days before his transportation started at school just today. He’s a little special, so it was extremely difficult for me to allow him to do it, but he insisted, and it worked out just fine. I’m a little surprised at how easy it was for him and how he literally had no problems with it. But I am definitely relieved that he doesn’t have to do it anymore. I wouldn’t make the same decision in NYC, I’m sure, but I might if he weren’t special.
The Boston Molasses Disaster actually happened and wasn’t fiction, but if I ever travel to Boston (or worse, bring a child there), I doubt I’ll be living in fear of being drowned in pancake topping.
I already said I’m perfectly willing to accept that my perception was wrong. It wasn’t about accepting anything that “accorded with my version of things,” it’s an issue movies literally being the only view of NYC subways I’ve ever seen.
I did go to New York City a couple of times when I was a teenager (early 1980’s), but I didn’t go on the subway.
I never said anything about New York in general, just the subway, because (my attempts at humorous exaggeration aside), I really did have an impression that they were generally unsafe and prone to be populated with vagrants, gang bangers and the like, just like the city buses can be in Minneapolis. I wasn’t trying to trash New York, and I wouldn’t let my kids run around Minnapolis by themselves either.
Flight attendants have a hard enough job without having to be caregivers for your kid.
If the service is offered, I shall pay for it.
Cheaper than a $500 round trip adult companion fare: pay $50 and let her be her.
They love her, and she usually makes friends with other unaccompanied minors, keeping them all busy on the flights, and out of the flight attendant’s hair…
July of 1966: Young white guy & his bride from Oklahoma in a 1965 white Chevy on their honeymoon got lost at dusk driving through Selma Alabama.
Had to stop & ask for directions.
We did not die.
1980’s; Brother brought his 9-12 year olds to Tulsa from KS for visit. My slightly older child, 13 asked to go to Quick Trip to get something like a icee, really meant junk food but anyway, off they went. After a bit my brother & wife asked about why the kids were not back yet and I said, well, it is about 3/4 mile each way … They flipped out, jumped into their car to go rescue them. Kids came home while they went the wrong route in the car.
When daughter was about 10, 1983, her and friend left us at the grandparents and walked 1/2 block to the friends house. They came running back and said that an man had tried to get them into his car. We called police and they found the guy in the area. Was a known child molester.
Best child safety measure is knowledge & training.
As a young boy in my teens it was good that not only were all the guns in the house loaded, but that I knew where and how to use them. Crazy man kicked in the front door during family dinner, 9 people with kids from very little to mid teens, one older sister. Dad spun out of his chair and as he turned he mouthed the word ‘shotgun’ to me as i was out of sight of the guy coming in the door. I went for the 12 gauge and Dad intercepted the nut job who was screaming and charging the dinning room. I came out of the hallway and got his attention, not hard to do with a 12 gauge even if he was nuts, and he got loose and ran. Still think I sholul;d have dropped him as the police never caught him.
Dad had new and much stronger door installed the next day.
Safe little Tulsa, OK…
Everything is risk management but IMO, an untrained, uneducated in the ways of the world, sheltered child who is taught to fear is not really a good way to go in the long run.
My 18 year old daughter was murdered in 1991, I still would not change anything I taught her about life & the ways of the wold and it’s people. She knew. It was her choice to not have a gun with her that day. I do know that NOT having a gun with her that day did not keep her alive.
When we were kids, my folks had a cabin on Ft Gibson lake in Eastern OK. From about 9 or 10 on, we had to swim to the channel buoy and back before breakfast. About 1/4 mile out from our 45 foot cliff which we jumped off of to get to the water. None of kids (7) have drowned yet.
My Dad always said he probably would out live one of us kids once we were all driving. The odds where in his favor. We fooled him though, we listened & learned and did not die. Both him & my Mother were from big families and all children out living their parents was not the norm back then.
YMMV
TheKid is 16. We live in an inner ring suburb of Minneapolis. According to some people, I’m a meanie. She can go out by herself (on foot, no DL, doesn’t like riding her bike) to meet up with others. However, after dark I do ask that she does not walk home by herself. Usually the guys will walk her home. It has been made clear to them that around curfew someone must be with her otherwise I would not be a happy momma, and they don’t like me unhappy. I will gladly drive them home, if necessary. Sometimes I will go pick her up. Most of her friends live in the “bad” part of our city. It’s not that I fear some evil person will lure with candy and she’ll tra-la-la off with him, but rather TheKid frequently gets hit on by guys well out of her age group and it skeeves us both out. One night she and a girlfriend ran almost a mile home because some guys were following them, hooting and making lewd suggestions.
Some of it is on her, too. I work near the Minneapolis Public Library downtown - a great library. I’ve given her a bus card, asked her to come down - go to lunch, she could hit the library, then we’d ride home together. She won’t. Taking the bus scares her. Walking through downtown scares her. During the middle of the day is no big deal.
yes.
With both of my children I regularly told them to go out and play outside.
When my daughter was 8 or so we let her walk up the street with her best friend to buy sodas.
At 12 She traveled alone to Europe (3 different flights with changes at Newark and Copenhagen)
Subway?
No problem
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:66, topic:551188”]
Amazingly enough, I actually understand what Dio is saying. We’re all products of our environment and upbringing, and we’re naturally wary (or even scared) of “foreign” environments.
I would have been very hesitant to let my kids on a NYC subway when they were under ten years old. But I did allow them to wander off into the fields or woods for hours at a time with no cellphones, just as I did as a child. They were in comfortable and familiar territory. But they were not trained to deal with large crowds of people in big, confusing tunnels.
Many of you big city folks would freak out about cattle, porcupines, snakes, bears, thunderstorms, and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers in the fields behind my house.
Please understand that those of us who are not familiar with cities are equally concerned about perverts, gangs, grumpy lawyers, muggers, subway accidents and all of the other (real or imagined) dangers around your house.
[/QUOTE]
This is a reasonable and fair assessment of all but DtC’s assertion that he’s forming his opinion from movies (The Warriors, my gods) and such, which of course are in the business of finding ways to shorthand iconic representations of a place (the subway) of and heightening their ominousness for effect (Underground, a melting pot of all types of people, Oh Noes, you’re trapped!) and taking such an extreme position based on that is what people are reacting to. The fact that he later added a nearly 25-year-old out-of-the-ordinary case later just adds to the hilarity.
To add to what you said, people will not only feel comfortable in an environment they’re most familiar with but that will also extend that to how they raise, trust and enculturate their children. This is where the writer in the OP lives, along with her son. At what point do we not only start trusting our kids bit by bit, but also start letting them test them boundaries and learn how to navigate on the own? Do we actually want them to turn 18, never having learned any survival skills or common sense whatsoever?