BooksWoods
That transdermal patch is still readily availible by prescription in the US. It is a drug called scopolamine. Ask yer doctor.
That’s pretty much what the sellers are counting on, isn’t it?
Oh, well, there’s always good old Dramamine.
A pivot point? In the arms? What anatomy class are you taking? Dunno 'bout you, kid, but the average person’s sense of balance is much closer to the inner ear.
Pivot point in the arms. Yep. What happens if someone pushes you? You hold out your hands to get your balance back. The human body is a really really complicated feedback system, and I’m saying I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some kind of information coming back from that joint to compensate with. Of the same nature as your center of gravity sense that lets you walk up hills and suchlike. I’m not talking eustachean tubes, which I also can’t spell. I’m talking more like… I don’t know, something more related to clinging to things sensor, much like baby monkeys clinging to momma monkey. You feel more secure when you’re strapped to things, which tends to let you feel less off balance.
Again, I’m going off ancedotal evidence here. Personal experience and known persons experience, and random stuff pulled out of my head. I don’t know if they work. I have observed they seem to work at a level past the psychosomatic. (Unscientific blind tests have been performed… I had a friend who complained of being sick in a ferris wheel. Before taking her on the boat, I made sure she had a glass strap, and I told her to put the bands on, saying they were safety equipment. She did not complain of being queasy, though she did the time she returned without wearing them. The third time, I asked her to wear them again, they worked, and then I told her why.)
But as far as hard evidence goes, I’ve got slim to none. I’m just tossing up a hypothesis as to why they might work. I’m not an acupressure sort, as most of it is pure crap.
Some things work. Pinching drunk people’s earlobes real hard wakes them pretty well, when other things don’t. Smacking the funny bone cause pain. This appears, irrelevant to the rest of the claims of acupressure, to work, insofar as stopping queasy feelings from seasickness from starting. I’d agree that once you’re feeling green, it’s far too late to put them on, though.
E-Sabbath, your theories are pure speculation and fantasy. I can see no connection between “someone pushing you and you put your arms (or feet?) out to get your balance back” – which is a function of physics related to a center of gravity – and whether pushing on a spot on your wrist affects your inner ear. Your speculation is grounded on an even wilder speculation of ancient Chinese medicine, something even the chinese don’t seem to take seriously:
If the wristband “works,” it is because you have convinced yourself that it does and will ignore all contrary evidence. See Pragmatic fallacy.
Hmm, that could be it. Last time I asked for it, I was told it was taken off the market. If it’s the same thing, it works great.
No, my speculation has nothing to do with meridians or accupressure at all. Not one thing. Didn’t even know it existed when I learned about them.
It is also not a pragmatic fallacy. It is not “true because it works”. It appears to work. It appears to work no matter if you know what it is for or not. However, my sample size is not large enough to be even vaugely scientific.
Why it works is unknown. I have a theory, but I have no idea if it is correct or not. My guess is that it has nothing directly to do with your sense of balance, but more to with perhaps your sense of security.
I suspect, like Feng Shui, accupressure is based pretty much on an ad-hoc “well… it worked once” system of folk medicine. There is nothing mystically correct about Feng Shui, but as a system of home decoration, it usually works to clear out some of the more typical screwups. The modern, more scientific version appears to be Environmental Psychology.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185674&highlight=feng+shui
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfengshui.html
A lot of it is pure junk added on for one reason or another. But, much like willow bark tea actually is good for headaches, I don’t see why parts of it may or may not work. More study is needed.
So. To trim the conversation to the basics:
A: These bands seem to work to people who know what they’re for.
B: This may be psychological in nature.
C: A unscientific, ad-hoc experiment I performed seems to say it works if you don’t know what they’re for.
D: If you’re already feeling sick, it’s too late to use it.
E: Don’t know why they work.
F: Rampant speculation: I think it might have something to do with pressure on nerves and not your sense of balance at all. Maybe it has something to do with constricting blood vessels. If I were to look for an evolutionary point, I’d say that it might have something to do with climbing, maybe with how little monkeys cling to their mothers as they climb.
G: Sometimes folk medicine works, though the reasoning behind it is often horribly wrong.
F: Sometimes, it’s a load of hooey.
H: Even if it’s psychosomatic, if it works for so many people… well, then it works, doesn’t it? I know that my asthma is partially psychosomatic… It’s ten times worse around my mother. Doesn’t stop it from being life threatening at points. Just means it’s a psychological cure and not a physical one.
Personally, simply because I have found it never works after you’re feeling sick, I think there’s a physical reasoning behind it. No proof. Needs further evaluation.
I don’t know. Where am I going wrong here? Am I missing something in my rational thought procedure?
I applaud you for taking a investigative attitude towards your beliefs rather than blindly trying to defend them. That shows you are on the road to critical thinking.
Try reading the Pragmatic Fallacy link once again.
I also suggest you investigate books by Michael Shermer, in particular Why People Believe Weird Things. Two other good books are:
[ul][li]How We Know What Isn’t So, by Thomas GilovichHow To Think About Weird Things, by Schick & Vaughn.[/ul][/li]I understand that you may not have known the theory behind accupressure, but the Chinese meridian concept is the one that is usually used to explain it. And if the theory behind a possible phenomena contradicts solid scientific knowledge, it casts considerable doubt on the phenomena itself.
We humans are good at finding patterns and making associations, but we need to be able to verify those correlations before stating them as fact. For example, let’s say you get sick. One of these things is absolutely sure to happen:[ul][li]You get better[]You get worse, or[]You stay the same.[/ul]This is true whether you take medicine, wave a magic wand, or stare at the clock. [/li]
Now if you get better, what caused it? The medicine, the wand, or the clock? Or neither?
If you get worse?
If you stay the same?
Our personal observations, as genuine as they feel to us, are the worst possible way of determining the cause of an effect. We have too many biases that we cannot eliminate, and we are awfully good at fooling ourselves. That is why multiple clinical trials on sufficient numbers of patients and cases, properly randomized and blinded, are the only path to true knowledge. Anecdotal evidence (I took a pill, it cured me) have absolutely no validity in good science.
Right you are. So far, the best explanation we can come up with to explain why people think it works is wishful thinking and the placebo effect.
You’ve got an awfully closed mind for a skeptic, Musicat.
I happen to have read that specific book of Mr. Shermer’s. It’s very good. I might also reccomend quite a bit of Martin Gardner’s works beyond Fads and Fallacies. They’re all good. But this isn’t the point.
I am not arguing that something is true because it works. That would be arguing that accupressure is true because these wristbands work.
I am arguing that these wristbands seem to work, though I do not know exactly why.
Hm. “It is true that the wristbands prevent motion sickness because they work.” Nope. Tautology.
Random observation, possibly connected: The inside of the wrist is very sensitive. I seem to recall that it is, in fact, the most temperature sensitive region of the body, thanks to a study on why people test baby bottles there.
There is a great difficulty in placebo testing this effect, though, as it is so… minor, and also because it is so obvious. (It’s hard to not tell if you’ve got a normal wristband or one with a lump in it). Not to mention the wide variation in motion sensitivity in humans.
Placebo effect: Possible, but not the most probable. Simply because there is some evidence that it works without knowing what it is. (Note: Experiment was performed circa '84, before the theory was widely known. Ancedotal evidence suggests a western tradition of the same practice among east coast sailors, as my father says he learned it from his father, then forgot about it till he saw one of those terry cloth things. May have relationship with the traditional woven rope bracelets of sailors. May not.)
Wishful thinking: Again, could be, but I try to work against it.
The only final comment I can make is that seasickness can be largely, except in the worst cases, psychosomatic in nature. That is, nausea is easily caused by the mind. It is, in fact, possible to make yourself sick by thinking too hard about it. I’ve seen the best results with the bracelets come when you put them on long enough before encountering the turbulent conditions that you forget that you’re wearing them. If you concentrate on them, and on how you don’t want to be seasick, you wind up being sick. Which should be a surprise to no-one.
In short: Minor effect, possibly useless, but worth a go for fifteen bucks, IMHO. Studies appear to be ambivalent, but if you can’t, or don’t want to use pills, or if you are a sailor with guests that pop up and you don’t know how they’ll react to pills, worth a go.
That’s the real benefit of them in my experience. Can just toss them in the rails, and drag 'em out when someone shows up, like glass straps. Dramamine/scopolamine works without question. But randomly drugging people is never a good idea. This… it’s a backup system.
Do we have any strong evidence they don’t work? I see that the ancedotal in the thread is “Some people they work for, some they don’t.” and the studies are the same, though the blind study is negative. Though the synopsis is not detailed enough to tell me how it was applied.
The reasons I think there may be a physical effect: It is a prevention, not a cure. It is a continuing application, not a “magic rub.” In a sensitive region.
The reasons there may not: Nausea is partially psychological to begin with. There is currently no explained mechanism for this to work. It does not work for everyone.
Note that I have not changed my stance any, I simply am growing more detailed and analytical about my observations, experience, and opinions.
If you were to ask casually, I’d say, “Well, it seems to work for people I know, it’s worth giving it a go. Just put 'em on ten-fifteen minutes before you cast off.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if they helped with car sickness, if any parents have a problem with that.
Oh, one clarification: Seasickness tends to go away after time. However, generally speaking, after periods of being away from the sea, you can usually count on being sick on your first trip out.
I would be suspicious of any cure for seasickness, for the reasons mentioned above, the “Get better/worse/stay the same” as you tend to adjust and get used to it. The fact that this band seems to prevent seasickness and not cure it after it starts is, in my opinion, a point in its favor for that reason.
I think that’s about as far as I can explore the concept. Anyone?