Motorcycle statistics: possible to remove the bad examples?

Factual Questions
1

I’ve been looking all of the web for a version of motorcycle statistic, but not having much luck, I’m hoping someone has better Google-fu than I do.

Here is what I’m looking for. I need to show my wife that I’m the “the good kind”, when it comes to motorcycle riders. I love riding my bike, and would love to ride it to work some, even though that means a commute in Atlanta traffic. She is absolutely petrified by her perception of the danger. Simple as that.

Okay, so to expand here are some factors.

Why I want to ride my bike more
[ul]
[li]just love the experience of riding[/li][li]can use the HOV lanes, and that’s huge[/li][li]gas costs on the bike are about half what they are in the car[/li][li]keep miles off my car, currently accumulating miles at a ridiculous rate[/li][/ul]

**Why she says “I’d rather you not” **
[ul]
[li]Statistics like “7 times more likely to be involved in a fatal accident”[/li][li]She is completely convinced that all MC accidents are fatal ones[/li][li]As she says “she wants nothing bad to happen to me”[/li][/ul]

**Additional, possibly mitigating information **
[ul]
[li]I wear a full face, top of the line helmet ALWAYS[/li][li]I wear ATGATT (all the gear all the time) which means armored jacket, pants, boots, gloves, etc.[/li][li]I have a midsize “standard” motorcyle in perfect mechanical condition[/li][li]I am meticulous with my pre-ride routine, checking fluids, tire prerssures, lights, etc.[/li][li]I ride DEFENSIVELY, not aggresively, not casual.[/li][li]I have taken the MSF safety course, and was the only rider to ever score a clean 100% on the final riding test, in the experience of the instructor[/li][/ul]

Blah, blah, blah. Point is, I’m not a weekend rebel on his Harley with no sleeves and sandals on. I’m not a 21 year old kid who buys a Hayabusa as his first bike. I have zero desire to pop a wheelie.

So, basically, the problem is, all the statistics my wife finds, and she is an analytical person, say that riding a MC is like asking for death or loss of limb. I say those stats are skewed by the numbers of these guys, or these guys, or even this guy.

So, anyone have motorcycle safety statistics for fully ATGATT riders who don’t ride like ass-clowns?

2

I highly doubt it. The statistics in other countries which require full helmets and where most people on real motor bikes wear padded armor are still quite bad.

The reason for that are several: even discounting “kids and harleys”, there are several factors that make motor bikes dangerous, even with helmets and armor:

the small profile means that even with lights on car drivers easily overlook bikers

the two-wheel thing means that a curve, a pebble, a puddle or a sudden swerve all crash the bike, unlike a car that swerves and continues

there is no (almost no) crumple zone on a motor bike, and research into starting boosts (design the motorbike so that in an accident, the driver is launched over the hood of the car instead of into it) is just starting. The majority of accidents, the biker goes headfirst into a car. Even a helmet doesn’t help your spinal there.

So EMTs everywhere call bikers “Organ donors on wheels” or similar, because the accident rate is so high.

I think you are the one with the wrong conception here: just because you are going to ride sensible and cautious, that you will be safe. You can certainly lessen the risk that way (I assume you have taken additional courses for coping with extreme situations from your Motorists club?), but it’s still going to be higher than in a good car.

It does depend on the type of bike you drive - the faster, the more dangerous - and the route you typically take: country lane with lots of trees? Highway with high-speed traffic? 40 miles or 4 miles?

You also need to consider if you want to commute that in the winter you can’t ride the bike, so you still need another transport. (Unless you live in Florida or elsewhere without a winter).

3

Crap, missed the edit window. One of the most often quoted studies is one done by NHTSA, covering a 10 year period from 1996 to 2006. Some of the problems with NHTSA numbers - they give hints, not reality. Why don’t they reveal the accidents per displacement, weight, horsepower, rider experience, rider experience on the specific machine, protective gear usage, and other truly valuable revealing data. That complete data might help give direction for motorcyclists to follow to avoid accidents. The obvious things like alcohol use are there, but not enough information to do some serious thinking about what might help. Only vague information. It is standard misleading incomplete information at best.

4

Just a thought - car accident statistics are also skewed by bad and/or drunk drivers. Is the proportion of good to bad operators different for cars and bikes? If not, it might still be 7 times more risky for you personally (or whatever number).

I partake in a somewhat risky sport, and as tempting as it is to try to reason away the risk, there’s a certain amount inherent to the activity. Of course, that’s not what I tell my loved ones :D. They get the speech about how it’s not that risky, all the people that get in trouble were being careless/dumb/whatever.

5

Are you trying to make ends meets and living from paycheck to paycheck? Or are you just trying to save some money (in which case I’d bet there are other places where money is being wasted)?

My big thing would be that no matter how safe you are, your biggest danger is all the idiots on the road. I’v been in Atlanta traffic. You are going to be exposing yourself to LOTS and LOTS of idiots on a regular basis.

6

I’m not aware of specifics, but you can identify factors that increase or decrease your risk from what the stats show.

The unfortunately named Hurt Report was compiled 20+ years ago, but I’d like to believe many of the findings (listed here) are still relevant.
Examples:

-riders without training or license endorsement are overrepresented in accident stats (IOW, you’ve had the MSF course, so you’re less likely to be involved in a crash).
-inexperienced riders are overrepresented; if you’re past your first couple of years of riding, you’re less likely to be involved in a crash.
-Alcohol is involved in half of fatal crashes. Don’t drink&ride, and your odds of making it to your destination improve dramatically.

…and so on. Scan the list, see what applies to you.

Another stats page. Data slightly less aged, comes from 1994.

As you note, “7 times more” is an average for all riders. If you’re playing it smart - get trained, licensed, wear protective gear, don’t ride drunk, and so on - your odds can be much improved.

Not all MC accidents are fatal. I’m very active on a MC discussion board; a few of our members have been killed over the 12 years I’ve been riding, but many more have been in accidents with no permanent disability (or even no hospital time). AFAIK they were all wearing protective gear, and their reports showed that the gear made a huge difference. I also know many, many more people who have never had an accident despite riding lots of miles. In my own case, 150,000+ miles, no accidents (and I do tend to ride in a sporting manner on twisty roads). I personally know a gentleman with over 1 million lifetime miles; he’s now 80 years old and still tours on a regular basis.

Wanting nothing bad to happen to you is an unachievable goal. A car is not perfectly safe by any means; tens of thousands of car occupants are killed every year, many more horribly injured.

FWIW my wife worries too. Sometimes all I can do is remind her that we both want the same thing - for me to come home safely from my ride - and that I’m doing what I can to ensure that that happens. Being married means a person has a right to expect some consideration from their spouse, but it doesn’t mean that person gets to cocoon their spouse in bubble-wrap because they’re afraid something bad might happen. You owe it to your wife to remind her that safety is your priority (it sounds like you’re doing that, in word and deed), but your wife has to accept that marrying you entails some non-zero risk that you might not come home one day (this is true for anybody, not just motorcyclists).

7

Here in the US we have very little standardization of data gathering. Each state is mostly free to put whatever factoids they want on their accident report forms. And cops are free to fill out, or not fill out, or fudge, many minor items on the forms.

It wasn’t that many years ago that alchohol use info wasn’t even collected.

As a long-time rider, I’d wager that well less than a third of serious motorcycle accidents are caused by “riding while stupid”. 2/3rds or more are caused by car drivers. And in a significant fraction of that 2/3rds, the rider is screwed; quality defensive riding won’t help.

I’d also wager that riding in typical workday traffic is the scenario with proportionally the least *riding while stupid *accidents and the most trapped by dumb-ass car driver accidents.
My bottom line: You’re not going to get better statistics. Even if you could, they’d be not far from the headline 7-to-1. Finally, even if they were demonstrably better at (made up number) 3-to-1, would that change your wife’s mind? I think not.
Ride to work or don’t as you will. But don’t look to unavailable stats to prove an unprovable case to an unpersuadable audience.
ETA: Or do what I did: Get so much life insurance that you’re worth far more as a Buick hood ornament than as a lifetime breadwinner. That’ll hush her up right quick. :wink:

8

Yeah, taking out the risky riders makes sense if you want to look at just the absolute accident rate, but if you want the relative rate compared to driving your car you need to remove the risky car drivers as well.

9

I drove a motorcycle for 10 years before I owned a car. I drove all over Canada and the USA. IMHO - the most dangerous driving is stop-and-go (or actually, higher speed 45mph) city driving. Expressways are probably the safest. Everyone is going in the same direction, the worst case is the bozo who doesn’t check their blind spot; which is where you should not be on a motorcycle anyway. People accelerating, turning into lanes, cross traffic etc. ar most dangerous.

In 10 years, I cannot remember having any really serious close calls - except the time I was in the inside lane (it was much smoother) of the NY State Thruway at 4am, doing 90mph in one tire track, when I suddenly saw a complete tire lying in the road on the other side of that lane - just a glimpse in the headlight as it went by. That sure woke me up!! I chalk that one up to “driving stupid”. I seriously dislike driving at night.

I would suggest that commuting on a motorcycle in heavy traffic is not the best use of the bike. Sorry. There are just too many idiots in the world, and looking for every one you possibly can, twice a day, 5 days a week, is not good. If you commuted in a less dense traffic zone, then maybe.

How many car accidents and close calls have you had so far?

10

Commuting on the bike has an advantage to be considered here, though. Riding a bike means I get to ride in the restricted access HOV lanes. Not as much lane hopping in that lane. My commute consist of about 2 miles on surface streets from my house to the interstate, then 23 miles of HOV lane commute, then less than 5 blocks after my exit to pull into my work parking deck.

As for your second question, I’ve been accident free (both car and bike) for over 20 years. Last speeding ticket was a 12 over in a little speed-trap small town about 6 years ago. Close Calls? So many ways to define that. Not really any that I would call a close call anytime recently.
I know that all we are talking about here is levels of risk. Riding a motorcycle is inherently riskier than driving a car. But then again, as Bilbo says “It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your front door”.

11

Then I will agree with you, not the wifey. 5 blocks of downtown is not bad. HOV is pretty safe, I assume it’s the inside lane(s) like elsewhere, so not too much weaving traffic. I would be worried about high speed intersections in the suburbs, but otherwise it’s pretty safe. It’s just bozos changing lanes, pulling out of driveways and constricted parking spots, 2 lane roads where things are fast and idiots pass that bother me.

IMHO (sorry, wrong forum) a lot of the accidents are bike riders pushing the limits, cutting in and out and speeding in busy traffic… Plus the 18yo bozo I saw who drove off after he was tossed out of a bar (carrying his helmet), fell over trying to start his bike, then took off and proceeded to bounce head-first off 2 telephone poles and a curb. Fortunately he wore a helmet, which made the cleanup much much easier.

12

I don’t think you would be happy if commuting via motorcycle in stop and go traffic statistics were available. Though your commute seems to be less hazardous then a stereotypical suburban commute (thus the statistics you ask for may work against you)

May I suggest going a different route, from your post:

Marriage is based on love, and if you have such a passion, it would be beneficial for both of you if you are free to pursue it. You don’t want to get into the situation where you feel your wife is not letting you commute in a way that is enjoyable to you and keeping you in a state of want. And you having a more enjoyable life during your commute should help you be a happier partner in your marriage helping you both grow in love and trust.

13

I don’t have any stats for you, but IMHO a big issue with motorcycles isn’t the likelihood of an accident, it’s the consequences of one on your unprotected corpus.

Around here some of the HOV lanes are separated by concrete barriers…and some aren’t. Some are a marked left-hand lane beside jammed-up non-HOV traffic, into which non-HOV folks will suddenly dart to shoot ahead a few hundred yards and cut back in. These illegal abusers are worried about getting caught by the cops, and thus looking hard for cop cars, not bikers; and the most vulnerable part of their maneuver is the sudden lunge into the HOV lane from nearly-stalled speed in their original lane, so they make the move with abruptness. They scare the ever-loving crap out of me when I’m in a car passing them in the HOV lane, because suddenly one of these clowns will just dart into my lane and of course be way, way under the prevailing speed. So if it’s that kind of HOV lane I doubt it absolves you from the danger. :stuck_out_tongue:

14

Because that would be a lot of extra data for somebody (the police officer on the scene, I’d assume) to collect, each time there’s an accident. NHTSA undoubtedly doesn’t reveal it because they don’t ask anybody to collect it for them in the first place.

15

They are called Donorcycles for a reason.

16

Thanks, that’s a very helpful and informative response. :rolleyes:

17

Machine Elf. I think you already knew the answer. If you’re in accident there’s nothing between you and the road but your Levi’s. It’s not you that’s the problem, it’s the guy who doesn’t see you and hits you.

18

I believe it was rotten.com (NSFW!) that had the picture “nothing comes between me and my Harley” of some accident victim who had most of his lower face removed by his handlebars; lying there on the gurney, you could recognize his tongue hanging out of the hamburger…

The CBC radio had an item many years ago about bikes effectively banned by the insurance companies in Ontario. Ninja bikes with 1200 to 1600cc were lightweight and truly overpowered suicide rockets. Since no company would write the insurance on them, especially for under-25 male drivers, it was effectively impossible to register one in Ontario.

I will agree, if people have a habit of popping into and out of HOV then yes, it is dangerous. When not-the-best drivers to begin with make impulse lane change decisions based on a glance in a side mirror, it’s easy to miss a motorcycle.

19

People (specifically, people who don’t ride) call them “donorcycles” because they think riding one means almost certain death/dismemberment and that there’s not a damn thing a rider can do about it. And they’re wrong on both counts.

That’s up to the rider. I wear a helmet, motorcycle boots, and armored/abrasion-resistant clothing. I cringe when I see kids on sportbikes wearing shorts, sneakers and a T-shirt; I hope they really, really enjoy that breeze, cuz the price will be really, really steep if they have a get-off. OTOH, I know people who have crashed while wearing a full complement of protective gear and walked away with minor bruises.

Often times it is the rider that’s the problem. Single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are commonplace, and are frequently attributable to bad judgment and/or a lack of training/skills. Consider the helmet law protester who recently died. Supposedly he had “30 years” of experience (though mileage is important; if he only rode 300 miles a year, that’s a paltry 9000 miles in the saddle). Not only was he not wearing a helmet, but in all that 30 years, he apparently never practiced his braking skills:

Severe overbraking like this (or, at least as bad, severe underbraking) is a common response to imminent collision, and can lead to a crash that might have been avoided had the rider practiced his skills a bit. I often see riders doing other stupid things, like tailgating (rider will have no time to respond if lead vehicle runs over a dangerous object or stomps on the brakes) and riding for prolonged periods in the blind spots of other vehicles. These are the kinds of behaviors that are likely to make a rider become a statistic. Polishing defensive riding skills (e.g. braking, avoidance maneuvers) and employing defensive riding policies (stay out of blind spots, don’t tailgate, keep a clear view of the road well ahead of you, maintain situational awareness, cover the brakes when a hazard is imminent, have a “what if” escape route ready, wear high-vis gear, add conspicuity lighting to front/rear of bike, etc.) help to ensure a long, healthy riding career.

No one can remove the element of chance completely (this also goes for car drivers who think they’re completely invulnerable inside their metal cage), but a huge fraction of motorcycle accidents happen because riders did not stack the odds in their favor to start with.

20

Ninja bikes? 1600cc?

I’m assuming you’re talking about sport bikes - or crotch rockets. Kawasaki makes a sport bike called a Ninja which is why I’m assuming that. I can tell you that there are no commercially available 1600cc sport bikes. Most are under 1000cc. The biggest common one that I am aware of is the Hyabusa - which is 1300cc.

Not that it matters. You could kill yourself on a 50cc scooter if you tried hard enough.

Yes, the fishtailing and getting thrown over the handlebars is a sign of an inexperienced rider. If you are in an emergency braking situation and you lock up your back tire, you should keep that back tire locked. Especially if the bike starts getting sideways. You may lay it down, but it’ll be much better than the alternative. If you get it sideways and release the back brake, that back tire will get traction and you’ll highside - which means you get launched.

The best thing to do is to get that back tire sliding straight and then let up on the brake, but if you can’t, you have to keep it locked up until you stop.