I’m sorry to hear of someone’s death like that Airman, but it sounds like you simply have a problem with motorcycles. Thats fine, its your opinion. But it does matter if the accident was caused by someone else. I had a bike at Fort Campbell for awhile, but i gave it up when I moved to another assignment. Admittedly it takes a bit of skill to ride one well, and some people don’t think about that, but then some people drive cars like complete idiots. Heck, some jerk almost ran me over on my bicycle last week and it was because he WAS TALKING ON HIS CELL PHONE AND NOT WATCHING THE ROAD.
I’ve known one person who’s been killed riding a motorbike. I’ve known at least five who’ve been killed in separate flying accidents. It may be true that flying is safer than riding, in general. But there are plenty of specific groups of pilots who fly in circumstances that make flying a hell of a lot more dangerous than the average motorbike ride.
Would you be so quick to condemn a squadron of F/A-18 Navy pilots? Guys who are probably ultimately doing it for thrills (duty to the country aside), and who fall victim to training accidents?
What about airshow pilots? Plenty of them hit the ground sooner or later.
You fly for a living and take a risk. You say you know the risks and are willing to take them. How can you say that your friend hadn’t considered the risks of riding his bike and accepted them? How can you say that the risks you accept are ok, but the risks others take aren’t?
You had already decided that motorbikes were dangerous and your friends accident has confirmed that for you. There are plenty of people around who’s belief that flying is dangerous gets confirmed whenever there is an accident.
People are willing to accept varying degrees of risk. Unless they are also risking other’s lives, I don’t really see how anyone can get up on their high horse about any particular group of risk takers.
Of course it’s your fault, jackass. If you can’t see the vehicles around you, how about getting the fuck off the road?
Whoa guys, let’s all calm down a little and try and find some common ground, shall we?
Clearly we have a problem. Car drivers tend to pull out in front of bikers. Is it not perhaps a question of education? Both ways? Maybe car drivers should be educated to “Think Bike”, and bikers to “Think Ahead”?
I’ve often quoted a poster I’ve seen a photo of, in the Cat & Fiddle pub on one of UK’s great biking roads. It says simply “RIDE like a KNOB and you’ll DIE”. Words to live by. Still’n’all, if some waste of oxygen is going to argue that it’s not his fault if he doesn’t see or hear the bike, what’s he think he’s going to get? :rolleyes:
My favourite bike magazine, Bike, never ceases to repeat the message to take damn good care of yourself. How about car magazines hammering the other side of the message occasionally?
IMO, a year or two on two wheels would be a mighty good education for any would-be car driver. 
Fair enough Mal, but what I’m hearing is yellowval saying he “can’t” see us. Maybe all it takes is higher visibility on our part, and a heightened awareness. That awareness must come from us, as an outreach campaign, building bridges 'n all.
We can’t get away from the fact that bikers and cars need to learn how to exist side by side, y’know, ebony and ivory and all that.
Get over yourself, Airman. You really sound like a spode.
I don’t know Mellivora capensis, I ride with my high beams on and on a 1450cc Harley with the baffles pulled out (read loud), and I still get into trouble frequenly out there.
I agree that I became a much better driver of cars once I spent time behind the handlebars a little.
I also realize there are reckless people on bikes out there especially in the bigger cities, but I think that since driving has become such a mundane thing for us, we are occupying our time behind the wheel with other things and people are dying as a result.
Doors, I am sorry about your loss. Doubly so considering that it wasn’t the rider’s fault. Looking over your description of events, it sounds as if there’s a lack of mentoring on the entire motorcycle mindset in your outfit.
This is not good. Is there perhaps an authority figure on base who rides and who could give some pointers on how not to do it ?
FWIW, this thread nudged me into buying ordering a pair of headlight modulators to increase my visibility - I wasn’t aware that they were legal for anyone but police officers, turns out they are. In my experience, they’re golden for getting noticed. (They sure annoy the crap out of me.) You could drop the word around the bikers in your outfit ? In the name of fighting ignorance and all that.
Much too easy. Here in CA, getting a learner’s permit is a matter of demonstrating that you’re not blind, then passing an extremely easy multiple choice test. That’s it. And with that in hand, you can legally ride, say, an R1 with a few restrictions. (No freeways, no after-dark riding, no passenger.) For the full license, you have to point out such technical details on your bike as brakes, clutch etc., do some low-speed maneuvers (can be tricky on a sportsbike, admittedly) and ride round the block without falling off. The process costs less than $20, and the only delay is that of DMV scheduling.
Sportsbikes have gone overboard in power, lately. I’d like to see the big four agree on a max HP (like they did with top speed a few years back) before legislators get ideas. (Actually I wouldn’t mind seeing some legislation as well, if I could trust the powers that be to not miss the mark…) I’m all about free choice and whatnot, but anyone who feels the need to upgrade from an R6 because it limits him is either unaware of his own shortcomings or should be riding for a factory team.
FWIW, I ride about 60 miles per day in LA traffic, and it buys me about 15 minutes of time each way. That sort of time savings merits a calculated risk, at least in my mind. It is also rather enjoyable.
yellowval, if you can’t be arsed to look for motorcyclists, stay off the road, OK ?
The problem is largely one of car drivers having poor observation, but a bike rider with even a fairly small amount of experience is aware of this, this is why most collisions occur not on bends and corners as you might expect, but on straight dry roads in good light, near junctions.
http://www.essex.police.uk/bikesafe/stats.htm
Make a special note of the engine capacity of machine and the experience of the rider, the vast majority occur to those with a year or less experience, and on 600cc sport machines, riders of parger capacity sport machines tend to have much more experience, because it takes a good few years of riding to get your insurance down so that you can aford to ride a very high powered machine, and this tends to also keep those under 30 year old out too.
When you look at the peak ages for bike crashes, you can see why the insurance companies set their premiums so high that younger riders cannot afford to ride large capcity sport machines.
If you also note, its males that get killed for the most part, women are disportionally safer, though this could also relate to the number of road miles ridden rather than gender.
One serious issue raised by the OP is, regardless of who is to blame, motorcyclists are much more vulnerable, and are around 16 times more likely to suffer fatality than a car driver, per mile.
That 16 time more likely to die seems a shocking figure, until you look at the risk factors, lack of training and experience, alcohol, lack of crash hats, relative youth are all indicators of risk factors.
That fatality rate then fall dramatically if you do not come into one of the high risk groups.
It would appear in this case that the driver is at fault, however it may well depend upon the speed the rider was going, it
Airman, I couldn’t care less about what you think of me for choosing to enjoy riding a motorcycle, but the least you could do is be respectful of your friend’s choices and honour his memory. Or just don’t go to the funeral. There, I solved your problem. Asshole. I’ll try to let you know when I become a road stain too so you can rejoice being such a statistical genius. Please don’t bother showing up to my funeral though.
How do you keep from going deaf? A few years ago a bike passed me and not only did he drown out the radio but it physically hurt my left ear and I’m not particularly sensitive to lound sounds. Unless some of you guys with the louder pipes are wearing some sort of ear protection I don’t understand how you haven’t sustained some sort of hearing damage.
Marc
No, I hadn’t decided that. The rash of accidents started to change my mind, and this finished it off. Until now I was contemplating getting a bike when we could afford it. Not now.
Let me clarify that my pipes are loud, but not annoyingly loud. The Harleys that are extremely loud are the Sportsters (entry level Harley) with the baffles pulled. I can’t stand next to those things with the baffles pulled.
:rolleyes:
I respect that decision, but I can’t help but feel like it’s a shame that you had to make it under those circumstancs. you strike me as someone who would be extremely cautious and respectful of a bike, thereby greatly minimizing your risk, and it would be a shame for you to miss out on one of the great joys of life as a result.
Hampshire’s post pretty much nailed the keys to survival:
Take some time and reconsider. If you are ever down this way, stop by and we’ll take mine out someplace safe. It’ll change you.
Or not.
Like Mach Tuck, I also took the MSF course thinking I would get a motorcycle and found it, um, not that much fun - definitely not a great joy of life for me. I can see why it would be fun for other people and can easily see why for them the rewards far outweigh the risks. But for me it’s a very small reward for a high amount of risk and that’s not worth it (for me).
It did teach me to be a better driver, though, so hopefully I won’t impede other’s enjoyment of life on their motorcycles.
Congratulations, you sound smarter when you don’t use any words. I bet you could sound unlike a jerk if you weren’t here too.
I’ll bet it depends on who you ask.
I drive carefully around bikes. I don’t like the loudness, really get peeved at the assholes who drive in between lanes of traffic, etc.
been on 'em before in my life, didn’t care for it. rode w/a safe driver, and an asshole. didn’t care for it either time. different strokes and all.
IMHO, the OP’s out of line.
Dude, we just did this two weeks ago. You were there. You started the fucking thread. In that thread there was significant statistical evidence that motorcycles are more dangerous. So why are you still perpetuating this bullshit about bicycles being as dangerous as motorcycles?
Airman, I’m sorry to hear about your friend.