Movies without the plot armor

Cafe Society
41

Right, but this is why the concept of “plot armor” doesn’t make sense in a coherent story. You’re telling the story of a person, and if they die the story of that person is now over. Introducing a new main character in the middle of the story makes it a different story. If Harry Potter gets killed in the middle of book 4, then it’s not the Harry Potter series, it’s a different story.

A story should be about the most interesting events in a person’s life, because if they aren’t you should stop telling the current story and switch to the other more interesting story. This doesn’t mean the most action packed, a story about a retired former hero might be more interesting than a story about his cookie-cutter heroics in his prime.

Where the concept makes sense is in serialized fiction, especially when it isn’t produced by a single author’s vision. Why does the Joker always escape from Arkham Asylum? Because Batman has to fight the Joker and then Batman has to defeat the Joker. If Batman fought the Joker and put him in prison permanently or killed him then the stories of Batman fighting the Joker are over. And so the Joker has to escape, or turn out to have miraculously escaped the explosion. That’s plot armor. You can’t really defeat the Joker, because there’s always another issue next month and Batman has to fight somebody.

The only time you can permanently defeat the Joker is in a stand-alone work. So Nolan’s Batman or Burton’s Batman can permanently defeat the Joker. But a reboot will happen soon enough with a new Joker and a new Batman.

For something like Game of Thrones, we have several PoV characters. Yeah, Ned Stark got himself killed. But that wasn’t because the author didn’t believe in plot armor, it was because Martin decided that Ned should die because it made the story better. If the showrunners are going to kill off some fan favorite character next episode, what is the point of that? Why was that character a PoV character in the book/show?

This is the difference between history and fiction. In fiction you tell the story you want to tell. If the story you want to tell is about a Chosen One kid who finds the magic Macguffin and confronts the Big Bad and but gets himself killed instead of winning, that’s a fine story. But that’s not because the Chosen One kid didn’t have plot armor, it’s because you chose to subvert the Chosen One trope.

But what would really subvert the trope is to simply not invoke it in the first place. If you hate Chosen Ones then tell the story about a group of nobodies who made a difference not because they were destined to win, but just because they did. Make the story about how individual people live and die but movements live on. But again, plot armor has nothing to do with it.

42

Long ago, I mentioned in this thread (but very few people agreed with me) that I thought the sight of the Ark being wheeled into an American government warehouse at the end of Raiders implied that our having the Ark was what allowed the Allies to defeat the Axis in WWII.

Marcus explains to [del]Porkins[/del] Major Eaton that an army which carries the Ark before it is invincible; thus you don’t have to open it. What if it’s not even necessary to parade it around? Perhaps mere possession is enough to ensure that God is on your side.

43

I hate to interject reality into the scenario but if that’s the case, how do you explain the outcome of the Vietnam War?

44

Presumably after the events of Crystal Skull (where the attack on the warehouse caused the US Government to inventory everything and find the Ark again) it was given to the newly found state of Israel on its ten year anniversary.

45

Well, they would have more of a valid claim for it than the US. Oddly enough, that’s something I speculated about about since Raiders. Not to further drag down this thread by bringing up Middle Eastern politics but has Israel truly lost any military conflicts since the 50s?

46

Even with the Ark on the island, it would still likely play out something like that. The island was a Nazi military facility. Even if nobody on the island radioed Berlin to say, “Hey, we got the Ark!” before they popped the lid on it, eventually high command is going to realize that one of their military outposts has gone dark and they’ll send someone to find out why, and voila, Nazis have the Ark and can do all the nasty things you suggest.

The one fly in that ointment is that the Ark is not a dumb machine that will always return the same outputs given the same inputs. Rather, it’s the manifestation of the will of God, and God can actively manipulate the “rules” around how the Ark operates to ensure that the Nazis are never able to weaponize it.

Also, one of the great subversions in Raiders is that the US government gets its hands on a weapon of incomprehensible power from a decidedly non-human source, on the eve of a massive war, and very sensibly thinks, “This shit is way too dangerous to mess around with. Let’s pack it in a warehouse and forget it exists,” while the protagonist is all, “Fuck yeah! Crack that sucker open and find out how it works!” I really love that about this film.

47

Completely true which is why its hard to speculate what would have happened if it did get to Berlin(but then again I’m coming from a more petty perspective of proving an argument wrong about Indy’s irrelevance to the plot.

Then again this also opens up the can of worms if it really was God’s will or if it was some crazy alien or occultist thing that resembles God but isn’t quite God and thus isn’t as pure as we think it is. There’s also the fact maybe it’s a version of God who hates the direction humanity has taken, which is why he allows the Nazis to take it in the first place.

See, these are the arguments Big Bang Theory should have discussed!

48

There’s a fan theory that I like that says that the Joker is aware that he’s in a comic book and acts accordingly. So he doesn’t care about killing most people because he knows they’re not real, he keeps coming up with wild schemes because that will keep readers interested and him ‘alive’ in more issues, he doesn’t worry about getting caught because he knows they’ll bring him back after, and he avoids actually killing Batman because that would end the comic and his existence. I usually don’t like ‘this explains everything’ theories, but this one works for me.

Also, the ‘no plot armor’ thing doesn’t seem to be a real rule of the series, it’s more of a gimmick that was really just ‘people who aren’t actually major characters don’t have plot armor’. In the early book, what seemed to be major characters dropped left and right, but now Jaime charges a dragon in the middle of a field where his army is falling to pieces, gets knocked off of his horse into what looked like a shallow river but is actually incredibly deep, and swims to safety (in armor and missing a hand) at the start of the next episode. John Snow leads an adventuring party on a raid, gets surrounded and attacked by the Night King and his army, decides to play Rambo instead of escaping when the dragons turn up for a miraculous escape, and still gets out alive in the end. They sure seem to have acquired some significant plot armor at some point along the journey.

49

Actually, it’s true that the longer a character has been around the more plot armor he or she acquires. In the early seasons, if a major character was offed there was plenty of time for a new or formerly minor character to step into the breach and take on his role. Now that we’re in the final season, there’s no time to introduce new major characters or for a minor one to step up. After following a character for seven years, the audience will feel cheated if they are killed off in some random way, and they will feel tricked if a new major character is introduced out of nowhere. Major characters can be killed, but there has to be a big dramatic payoff.

50

Also, one of the great subversions in Raiders is that the US government gets its hands on a weapon of incomprehensible power from a decidedly non-human source, on the eve of a massive war, and very sensibly thinks, “This shit is way too dangerous to mess around with. Let’s pack it in a warehouse and forget it exists,” while the protagonist is all, “Fuck yeah! Crack that sucker open and find out how it works!” I really love that about this film.
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Hmmm… I always thought the movie’s intent is that the US government was too bureaucratic (and therefore stupid) to realize the Ark was a weapon or anything other than an archeological relic to be filed away.

51

That was my interpretation as well. The government didn’t lock the Ark away because they thought it was too dangerous. They just didn’t realize what they had (or someone who was lower in the chain of command didn’t understand its importance) and it was simply misfiled through incompetence.

52

I saw the movie when it was first in the theaters, and I remember wondering why Indy and Marion had to close their eyes, because, weren’t the Nazis melting because they were Nazis trying to harness the power of the Jewish G-d for evil, particularly directed against that particular G-d’s people? I mean, they were melting from sheer irony.

So, I accepted that maybe it’s like an eclipse, somehow. But I also figured it wouldn’t have happened if a group of the good guys had opened it.

53

I always thought the US government was deliberately hiding the Ark away in the most obscure way possible, at the orders of The Powers That Be.

54

Yes, because God would never sanction genocide.

More to the point, I once knew a kid in the Bible Belt who believed that God blinded a girl who looked at Him, simply because she looked at Him. Some people are simply pagan, I suppose, worshiping power and not getting the idea that power should be held to account.

Because we all know what Christians think of holding God to account for His actions.

Anyway, without plot armor, The Longest Day would have been a lot shorter: Oh, invade a beach-head? Have fun getting blasted by tanks, morons. Similarly, To Hell and Back wouldn’t have had the return trip.

Plot holes. So many plot holes in some things.

55

But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them. - 1 Samuel 6:19

Apparently, that’s just what happens when you look in the Ark.

56

That was my take on it initially, as well. Now that I’m older/wiser (or just more cynical), I can also see the Bureaucratic Stupidity angle.

57

Well, he favors some genocides more than others. I don’t think it’s a stretch to theorize that the God of the Old Testament was not a fan of the Nazis. AIUI, the covenant in “Ark of the Covenant” was specifically that God would not allow the Jewish race to vanish from the Earth so long as they kept faith in him. I don’t think he’d be down with the Germans trying to break his word on that.

Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” And the LORD said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.” - Exodus 33 19:23

Sounds like she got off easy. Still, that’s a good thought experiment: Is God powerful enough to give himself a face that won’t kill anyone who looks at him?

Apparently, not.

Why are we talking about Christians now?

John Wayne was pushing 60 and playing a paratrooper. You’re going to need some serious plot armor to drop a sextagenarian out an airplane and not kill him.

58

Bend, perhaps, but not break.

Maybe God’s getting cranky in His old age. He didn’t even scald Moses.

Because I started talking about my friend the Southern Baptist.

And that Audie Murphy twig, I can just see him on a tank. One stiff breeze and he’s a memory…

59

If I’m going to be pedantic, had Rommel used all his Panzer Reserves as he originally envisioned D-Day would have been an even bigger slaughter but mainly for the Germans. All those naval ships and all that Allied air supremacy meant the moment the Panzers got within range of the beach they would have immediately been annihilated even in night attacks. There would be more casualties on the American side to be sure but not enough to make such attacks even worthwhile for the Germans.

60

I’ve always been curious what Bond movie could he have gotten out of without plot armor (mainly characters not shooting him when they should have, I’ll give him some luck based powers in terms of avoiding gun shots from random guards and in terms of things completely out of his hands like gambling)

Dr No - The moment Dr No realizes Bond won’t switch sides when he invites him over to dinner, he should have immediately been shot and killed as opposed to thrown into a holding cell.

From Russia With Love - Rosa Klebb should have just shot Bond at the end when she had him at her mercy (though considering this is at the very end of the movie he did pretty well for himself)

Goldfinger - Goldfinger never would have made his pitch to the mafia regarding Grand Slam since the only reason in the plot is for Bond to learn of it, thus Bond would be completely in the dark about the nerve gas part of the plan

Thunderball - Bond should have been shot at the health clinic, they already were trying to kill him and one guy had a clear shot but didn’t for some reason.

You Only Live Twice - Helga Brandt should have shot him mid-way through the movie as opposed to leaving him in an escapable death trap

On Her Majesty’s Secret Service - Blofeld leaves him in a holding cell that has an open window instead of just leaving him in a completely locked closet, thus allowing him to escape and meet-up with Tracey.

Diamonds Are Forever - Mr. Wint and Mr. Kidd literally leave him in a sewer pipe instead of just killing him outright.

Live and Let Die - Left to die via gator with nobody around, thus allowing him to get away

The Man with the Golden Gun - Scaramanga has multiple open opportunities to kill Bond but doesn’t . However I’ll give Bond this one because Scaramanga is an ego-maniac and thus would only settle for a “fair” fight which Bond does outwit him at the end.

The Spy Who Loved Me - Jaws should have just straight up killed Bond at the Egyptian ruins instead of mess around with him

Moonraker - That guy who threw a knife at him really should have just used a gun or hit Bond first instead of his driver.

For Your Eyes Only - Bond is bleeding and underwear near multiple sharks, and yet the sharks never attack him and instead attack the henchmen pursuing him

Octopussy - I forgot if Khan had a legit reason for keeping him around, but Bond’s assassins bring knives not guns to try to kill him on Octopussy’s island and ignoring that Bond wastes more time disarming the nuke then he realistically should have.

A View To A Kill - Breathing underwater using a cars tire is impossible to do in real life so he’d be dead there

I forgot the plots to the ones after that so feel free to jump in