'Why did it have to be snakes?' - the 40th Anniversary 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' thread

40 years ago today, June 12th, 1981 Raiders of the Lost Ark was released. One of the most amazing and fun films of my life, or any life, Raiders was an artistic and commercial smash, and… though we didn’t realize it at the time (well, Pauline Kael did), provided a template which would take over Hollywood.

I’m going to do this thread like an episode of the podcast ‘The Rewatchables’: Feel free to share your experiences with this film of course, but if you wish, also answer the following questions. There are no wrong answers, of course, this all being opinion and all.

  1. Fave scene?
  2. Best quote
  3. What aged the best?
  4. What aged the worst?
  5. Unanswerable questions (was there anything about the movie which made you say ‘wait, but…’, knowing you would never know the answer)
  6. Apex mountain - who in this movie was at the peak of their creative or market power because of this movie? (For example, Jennifer Lawrence’s apex mountain was likely the first Hunger Games movie - after that, she had her choice in roles and for a 2-year stretch became America’s goofy sweetheart.)
  7. Who won the movie? Can only be one answer for this category.

I’m looking forward to everyone’s responses. This was a fun movie, let’s have a fun thread!

I was 15 when this film came out- don’t really know if that’s the ‘perfect age’ for a film which appeals from ages 8-80, but it’s in the sweet spot. Don’t remember my first viewing, but tbf, I don’t remember my 30th either. :slight_smile:

It was mesmerizing, the stories of the production becoming part of film lore (‘Ford was sick so they canned the scripted fight scene and had him just shoot the assassin’), and it reaffirmed Spielberg (coming off of 1941) as the premiere crowd-pleaser of the age.

There’s a lot I can go into regarding this movie but I don’t like stepping on discussion toes. I know there are people here who are more passionate fans of the movie, so let me end my first post with my answers to the questions:

  1. Fave scene: The opening sequence, from the Paramount mountain to the I HATE SNAKES! line reading.

  2. Best quote: Not really a quote, but the sequence where Indy tells Marion where it hurts, she kissing his bruises… it’s just a nice bit of cute I’m glad they added in. And as an adult, I’m glad Indy got laid in the middle of all this. It probably helped clear his head, give him purpose.

  3. What aged the best: The pace. Every 10 minutes there’s a cliffhanger. As I said above, RotLA provided the template for modern action movies.

  4. What aged the worst: Despite what I said above, the implied beginnings of Indy’s and Marion’s relationship. OMG, just make her 18, for God’s sake, why did you have to throw in TWELVE for God’s sake?

  5. Unanswerable questions: So… the first time Sallah thought Marion was dead, he took it hard. 2nd time he was like ‘yeah, sucks for you, but let’s keep going.’ Did she kick his dog in a deleted scene or something?

  6. Apex mountain: Guys, I’m going with John Williams with this one. His 1975-1982 work comprised at least 4 of the greatest film scores ever (Jaws, Star Wars, Superman. Raiders) as well as ET, CE3K, and Black Sunday. Holy. Fucking. Shit.

  7. Who won the movie: One from left field: Michael Eisner, President of Paramount. He not only decided that RotLA was to be the first major home video release priced to be purchased by consumers ($40), and when cash started raining from the skies, he then leveraged his success with this film to get the CEO job at a failing Disney. And, while not wanting to derail my thread, Eisner is one of the very, very few ‘Super CEO’s’ of the 1980s to have actually earned his salary - just look at Disney today.

This is absolutely near the top of my list of great and fun movies.

I saw it twice during opening weekend: Saturday afternoon with my father and sister and again Sunday afternoon with a group of friends.

  1. Fave scene: The paramount logo becoming the mountain, (tied) shooting the Arab swordsman
  2. Best quote: “It’s not the years, honey, it’s the mileage.”
  3. What aged the best? The movie looks as fresh now as it did 40 years ago. It’s timeless.
  4. What aged the worst? The plot holes stick out more.
  5. Unanswerable questions (was there anything about the movie which made you say ‘wait, but…’, knowing you would never know the answer) If the Christian God of the old (and later, new) testament obviously exists, does that mean Indy is going to Hell?
  6. Apex mountain - who in this movie was at the peak of their creative or market power because of this movie? Harrison Ford. And I thank him, because I’d rather have Selleck as Magnum than as Indy. High Road to China is a better movie for Selleck at the time.
  7. Who won the movie? God.
  1. Fave scene? Shooting the swordsman
  2. Best quote “It’s not the years, honey, it’s the mileage”
  3. What aged the best? The incredible pace.
  4. What aged the worst? Indy’s and Marion’s relationship.
  5. Unanswerable questions (was there anything about the movie which made you say ‘wait, but…’, knowing you would never know the answer) See 7.
  6. Apex mountain - who in this movie was at the peak of their creative or market power because of this movie? John Williams
  7. Who won the movie? Amy from Big Bang Theory: The Big Bang Theory - Sheldon and the Raiders of the Lost Ark--Subtitled - YouTube

hey! It’s that lady from Jeopardy!

Raiders isn’t my favorite movie but it’s up there. It is a cumulation of some of the greatest movie talents of their generation: Lucas’ story writing, Spielberg’s direction, Williams’ score, and Ford’s acting. It ages well not just because it’s so well done but also it’s set in the past so it has a more stylized version of the 1930’s. There are no obvious filler scenes; even those strictly meant to move the story along are well-designed and flecked with humor. And the ending is perfect.

One of my favorite scenes is when Indy and Marcus are introduced to the government agents and it sets up the whole rest of the plot. I love how Spielberg has the characters constantly interrupting each other in a way that feels natural. William’s displays his brilliance when Indy shows them the picture (in that massive book) of the Ark.

“Obviously we’ve come to the right men.”

Wanted to add that it’s interesting to note that Raiders was followed by Temple of Doom. It was largely the same team but that movie was such a mess.

My parents too me to see this when I was ten. I hadn’t heard of it, and the title sounded stupid, but they assured me it would probably be fun. To say we had fun would be a colossal understatement.

  1. Fave scene: The truck chase sequence blew me away, but from a movie making point of view, the exposition scene with the Army Intelligence guys is about as well crafted an exposition scene as has ever been filmed. Marvelous.

  2. Best quote: “Asps. Very dangerous. You go first.” Sullah has a fantastic quote-to-word ratio; “Bad dates” and “I’m so pleased you’re not dead!” are classics, too.

  3. What aged the best: This really doen’t feel like a 40-year-old movie. It’s extremely modern in appearance, pacing, and sensibility, for the most part.

  4. What aged the worst: The implication Marion was a teenager when they first got together, though I must point out they never do say how old she actually was. I don’t know where @JohnT gets “Twelve” from. If you want to figure she was 18, why not? Maybe she was.

  5. Unanswerable questions: Obviouosly, everyone’s gonna go with the submarine thing. It’s not just how he got into the sub, or remained atop it, within anyone noticing, but how did he and Marion get the Ark off the island?

  6. Apex mountain: In a sense, George Lucas. Lucas has never been involved with anything as good since. He’s gotten rich, but the three greatest movies he’s ever been involved with are Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Raiders of the Lost Ark, and those three came out in a four year span. That’s a hell of a run.

  7. Who won the movie: We did.

“Either of you guys ever go to Sunday School?” Loved that line.

BTW, the Indiana Jones films are the opposite of the Star Trek films, where the even-numbered Star Trek films are good while the odd-numbered ones are terrible. This film and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade were great but the second and fourth films in the series were not. (Though perhaps that means the new one is going to be good as well.)

  1. Fave scene: The entire opening sequence. So iconic. Just outstanding.

  2. Best quote: “It’s not the years, honey, it’s the mileage.”

  3. What aged best: The whole movie. Shoot it like this and release it today and it would be a hit. It’s just really excellent.

  4. What aged worst: Well, the animated effects sequence at the end, I guess.

  5. Unanswerable questions: If Indiana Jones did not exist, would anything really have changed? I feel like everyone would have just died from opening the ark and that is the end for the Nazis and the ark.

  6. Apex Mountain: Lucas most likely. He’d never make another series this great again.

  7. Who won the movie: Harrison Ford. Established him in another major series, this time as the main lead. His career got a big kickoff from Han Solo, but I think Indiana Jones is where he established he would be a major lead for years.

Do we have any real archeologists on the Dope? When watching the movies I often amuse myself by imagining archeologists cringing at the way Indy wreaks havoc on the sites themselves. It’s more obvious in Last Crusade but he does plenty of damage in the Well of Souls.

First of all, Raiders of the Lost Ark is one of my all time favorite movies even though it doesn’t make a lick of sense, and while it was certainly Spielberg at the peak of his filmmaking abilities, turning a Saturday matinee B-movie story into cinematic gold with amazing action setpieces and Lawrence Kasdan’s script, the performances are what really elevates this movie above the many imitators that came after. There is not a single weak performance in the movie, even by the bit players with just a couple of scenes; you don’t forget George Harris’s smuggler boat captain, Katanga, or the early performance by Alfred Molina as the turncoat assistant in the opening vault raid who gets himself impaled on a trap.

It goes without saying that this film cemented Harrison Ford as a bankable star after his turns in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back (one can only wonder what it would have done for Tom Selleck if he’d been able to stay in the role), and Karen Allen is one of the most believable “tough girl Friday” heroines, who when Indy doesn’t show up to save her can (mostly) take care of herself; she’s often put in the position of ‘damsel in distress’ but never views herself that way, which makes her character stand out. And while I’m sure the casting of a Welsh actor as an Egyptian digger would be viewed as ‘brownface’ today, John Rhys-Davies grounds the film in the dramatic moments; it is unfortunate he was reduced to mostly comic relief in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade because he is a much better character actor than to just be reduced to a jokey goof.

Anyway:

  1. Fave scene?

Too many to count; the obvious ones are re-entering the Tibetian bar to confront Toht and his thugs, shooting the swordman, “bad dates”, the horse-vs-truck chase sequence, being smacked in the face by a Nazi flag as an improvised rope in the Well of Souls, and of course the final warehouse scene that is an obvoius homage to Citizen Kane. If I had to pick one it would actually be the bar scene between a distraught and drunken Jones and the preening Belloq; it’s a great character moment that doesn’t feel forced and it highlights Belloq’s motivations and his self-reflection that, although he is the principal antagonist of the film, he doesn’t view himself as a bad guy even though he’s working for the Nazis; he’s just “a shadowy reflection” of Jones, a soldier-of-fortune interested in the glory of discovering a historically significant artifact that will get his name mentioned in archeological circles along with Heinrich Schliemann and Howard Carter. That he’s also a petty, sleazy leach just makes Jones look that much better even though by any objective standards Indiana is just about as bad in terms of how he treats people and desecrates archeological sites.

  1. Best quote

“It’s not the years, honey, it’s the mileage.”

  1. What aged the best?

The action sequences in this film are astonishing when you think about what both the stuntpeople and actors had to go through to make them, and it is difficult to find another film where the character actually looks like they are in so much danger; the closest I get in a modern film is the parkour chase in the 2006 Casino Royale. The practical effects, while obviously ‘faked’, are far more visceral than most attempts at CGI gore ever achieve. This was made a year before John Carpenter’s The Thing but the same comments to that film apply to this one.

  1. What aged the worst?

Well, Marion as a ‘child’ lover of Jones isn’t great. I think the chronology of the film has her being an adolescent compared to a 20-something Jones, but it is a period piece and such pairings were hardly unusual for that time if beyond the pale today. The film is relatively free of the grotesque cultural appropriation of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and I think would generally play as well to a modern audience as a current film, in no small part because Marion has real agency as a character.

  1. Unanswerable questions (was there anything about the movie which made you say ‘wait, but…’, knowing you would never know the answer)

The entire film is a bunch of answerable questions. There is clearly the indication of divinity; God (presumably) strikes the swastika from the Nazi crate while it is in the hold of the smuggler’s ship, but until the penultimate scene we don’t really see any other indications of supernatural activity. It is often asserted that had the Ark been sent directly to Berlin and opened in front of Der Führer that it would have ended the war by eliminating Hitler and the Nazi High Command but that seems unlikely, and there doesn’t seem to be a particular reason the Nazis wouldn’t have figured out how to use the Ark as the Hebrews purportedly did to smite enemies not astute enough to close their eyes.

Aside from that, there are a huge number of questions from the very beginning (How does the light-triggered impaling trap work and reset itself using pre-Colombian technology? Why is Indy trapsing through the jungle with a bunch of duplicitous gear-carriers when he has a seaplane sprinting distance away from the temple?) but the film moves so quickly you don’t really have time to think about this problems until it is all over, and even then you are so amped up on adrenaline that you are humming the John Williams score and shopping for a fedora rather than thinking about plot holes big enough to flight a fake Nazi flying wing through.

  1. Apex mountain - who in this movie was at the peak of their creative or market power because of this movie? (For example, Jennifer Lawrence’s apex mountain was likely the first Hunger Games movie - after that, she had her choice in roles and for a 2-year stretch became America’s goofy sweetheart.)

Aside from Ford and Allen, pretty much all of the actors in the film are character actors. I suppose this was probably a career peak for Paul Freeman (Belloq) in terms of recognizability but he’s had a steady career since. Speilberg and Kasden both went onto greater aclaim; I guess if this was a top of the pyramid of accomplishments for anyone it was George Lucas, although all he really had was a “Story By” and Executive Producer credit; ever since then it has been a slide into increasingly mediocre sequels and retooling of his own work.

  1. Who won the movie? Can only be one answer for this category.

The great thing about the film is that nobody really won in any material sense. I mean, Indy delivered the Ark to Army Intelligence but he and Marcus never get to study it as they were originally promised, and Indy walks out of the meeting frustrated and defeated. The ending has a very Chinatown or The Third Man ending, albeit without the deeper moral ambiguity of those films, and the Ark of the Covenant, being a quintessential McGuffin, is never explained except as “a source of unspeakable power”, hidden in a vast government warehouse where it will probably be found by some future generation to their misfortune.

Great film, I love to talk about it even though it does not have any deeper subtext beyond being a high budget pulp actioneer with great characters and nonpareil pacing that those seeking to make engaging action blockbusters would do well to study.

Stranger

I believer this comes from some ancillary discussion between Speilberg and Lucas about Marion’s age, and was later casually retconned to her reference of being “…a child; it was wrong and you knew it!” as being 16. Given that this would have occurred in the late 1920s, women were often considered “husband age” as soon as they hit puberty, and given that Marion described being taken around the world by her father (“Abner was sorry for dragging me all over this earth, looking for his little bits of junk.”) she was probably both somewhat more worldly and more isolated than the typical teenager, although it is also clear that Indy and Abner had a “falling out” over the romance, so clearly Ravenwood did not approve. The bigger implication in the film is that Jones is something of a cad, having left Marion in the lurch, but then, he’s kind of a jerk to everyone, basically the archetype of the the Ugly American.

I’m not an archeologist but I’ve been on dig sites, and as you’d imagine the technique isn’t to smash your way through walls or leave a site strewn with corpses while stuffing precious artifacts in your satchel undocumented and unprotected. The only thing really approximating archeology we ever see Indy do is some surveying on the Tanis site; pretty much everything else he does is just the sort of classic pulpy tomb raiding with the occasional act of vandalism, destruction of property, theft, and casual murder.

Stranger

Yeah. The conversation was more explicit than that, with Lucas arguing that the relationship was boring if Marion was older than 15 when she first hooked up with Indy, and was really pushing had for 12:

I was looking for that article. It helps to have the context that from a screenwriting point of view Kasden was looking for a reason to have a prior relationship and a conflict that kept the characters apart. It is difficult to read the actual sensibility from a transcript of a brainstorming session but Lucas and Speilberg do come off as being creepily “amused” by the inappropriate relationship in their suggestions. Mind you, this was just a few years after Roman Polanski fled the country after being accused of drugging and anally raping a 13 year old girl (to which he admitted in a sweetheart plea deal that the judge later rejected after seeing pictures of Polanski cavorting with teenage girls in Europe), and people have continued to work with and excuse Polanski up to the present day, so while the “creep factor” in that transcript is pretty high it probably wasn’t abnormal for that time, and well after.

Yet another argument for having diversity in a writers’ room, both to add new ideas and shortstop some of the deviance you get in a ‘locker room’ environment of entitled white guys. Rewatching any of the John Hughes movies of the era reveals a cringeworthy amount of misogyny and racism that goes well past the suggestion of an inappropriate-age relationship, and those films didn’t have the excuse of being set in a period era.

Stranger

I just read an article about that movie. Apparently, Ford did a lot of his own stunt work. That giant boulder weighed around 300 pounds, even though fake. Ford had to do that scene many times and each time outran the rock. Spielberg was appalled that Ford would take the risk.

When they were filming in Tunisia, it was pushing 130 degrees. Everyone except Spielberg (who brought his own canned food) had dysentery and were sun-blasted. Ford was dehydrated, had the runs and was badly sunburned, and supposed to have a prolonged fight with the scimitar dude, but after Spielberg said “The only way this goes faster is if you shoot the guy”, that’s what he did in the now iconic scene.

Scenes that were. . .odd. Ford fighting with the German. The German throws a roundhouse punch from the right (I think), and Ford spins into it. In a supposedly ancient tomb that has just been opened, there is scaffolding. :smiley:

I like the flick, but that submarine part… Nope. And the Bottomless Canyon that suddenly appears and disappears just as fast.

I don’t buy into that context for the simple fact that Marion Ravenwood and Indiana Jones are fictional characters. While the story required these two characters to have a romantic past which ended shakily at best, nothing in her age (29) precludes this romance from having a non-skeevy timeline: Have her meet him @ 19, hook up @ 22, break up @ 24, then spend 5 years moping around the globe with her dad, until he died in Nepal or somewhere.

The way the back story is presented now is Indy and Marion hook up when she’s an underaged teenager(!), they break up, and their relationship was considered so toxic that Indy’s mentor, Marion’s dad, thought it totes normal to take his daughter and bug the fuck out to the Himalayas.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: not a good look, Mr. Jones.

If she is 15, like Lucas wanted, this would mean that Abner had to protect his daughter from the sexual predator who also happened to be the most skilled and lucky treasure hunter in :us: history. No wonder they ended up in Nepal!

Ugh. I’m just going to assume they are speaking metaphorically here and remember that Lucas is someone who had 4, 5 fantastic ideas in his life but wasn’t all that keen on the details.