Or better yet, an independent investigation. As long as it doesn’t get vetoed, we can get star…
Oh.
Evil AND incompetent!
ETA: Especially those doctors and medics attempting to help others. Probably the second coming of Satan himself.
William F. Buckley blamed the protesters and MLK Jr. for the violence at Selma. Blaming poor and desperate victims of brutality by those with more power is nothing new. It’s practically the norm.
The reason you reach for that example is, MLK Jr didn’t throw the first punch. That’s what makes it a go-to, because that’s what makes it powerful; sadly, that’s also what keeps it, as far as I can tell, from being relevant here.
I would of course agree that there are times when it would be abhorrent to blame the protesters for the violence; I would merely add that, if you show me a ‘protestor’ who starts whipping fist-sized rocks at people who can shoot back, I’d maybe be honored to pin a medal on the guy who shoots back. Or to be the guy who shoots back.
Would MLK Jr whip rocks at people who can shoot back?
Please look 6 posts upthread and click on the linked video…(hint: it shows a typical day in Gaza, with terrorists proudly brandishing weapons. )
Then please try to admit that the protesters with Martin Luther King in Selma were a bit…different.
Your comparison is not only illogical…it is deeply,deeply offensive.
There were incidents of brutality during the Civil Rights movement in which at least one protester may have thrown a rock, or otherwise not remained 100% non-violent. That doesn’t excuse the brutality in response.
This is certainly a complicated situation, and I have much sympathy with Israelis who have good reason to be afraid of terrorism from extremists. But that doesn’t mean it’s okay for soldiers to gun down masses of people, the vast majority of whom pose no threat. Something in between “do nothing” and “shoot thousands” lies an appropriate response, IMO. Further, as MLK Jr. repeatedly stated, violence is inevitable when desperate people are placed in desperate circumstances. These are just people, not moral superheroes. The vast majority of Palestinians (most of whom have not engaged in any deadly violence) are just responding as humans would in those circumstances – humans with virtually no hope of a better life in the present scenario.
They can have a better life - but they have to stop trying to kill Israelis and bust down the fence.
The present scenario is one where Hamas is engaging in terrorism against Israel, and the Palestinians refuse to negotiate unless they are given everything they want first, and attacks armed soldiers and Hamas steals the aid they receive and murders dissenters. You are correct that they won’t have a better life under that scenario, but that’s not Israel’s fault.
What would that response be? Please be specific.
Regards,
Shodan
The vast majority are not trying to kill Israelis, and even the minority trying to bust down a fence don’t deserve to be shot.
There’s a lot more to it than this, and the question of who is at fault is an incredibly complicated mix. It’s not the fault of those Palestinian children who are killed or lose their parents. It’s not the fault of Israelis killed by terrorism. It’s the fault of a series of decisions made by leaders on both sides – not every decision, but many of them – along with the actions of extremists, including Palestinian terorrists and some extremist settlers.
And all of this has pushed millions of Palestinians, most of whom haven’t actually done anything wrong or hurt Israelis, into extreme poverty with almost no chance at improving their lot. And many or most have reacted as humans tend to in such circumstances, with great anger and frustration, and a smaller portion of them have engaged in violence.
I don’t have all the answers, but I’m fine with criticizing what, based on the data and facts I’ve seen, appears to be unnecessary brutality. I’m especially fine with criticizing anyone uninterested in a third-party investigation into such violence. There ought to be such an investigation, because overreactions and excess brutality aren’t things that never happen. They sometimes happen.
As an example of the kind of attitude that I think contributes to the conflict – public statements by leaders that dehumanize the other side. There are many such statements from leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah and similar organization about Jews and Israelis, and here’s one from Israeli defense minister Avigdor Lieberman:
“there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. Everyone’s connected to Hamas, everyone gets a salary from Hamas, and all the activists trying to challenge us and breach the border are Hamas military wing activists.”
Props to the family of the 8-month-old Palestinian infant who reportedly died after inhaling tear gas at the protest.
It’s never too soon to accustom the little ones to live fire.
Would you pin a medal to the guy that shoots the dozen people around the guy that threw a rock? Would you honored to be the guy that shoots a dozen people around a guy that threw a rock?
Keep in mind, in this scenario, you are wearing armor and helmets. A fist size rock will cuase you no harm. The bullets that you spray in response will.
And, if we are playing a game of “who threw the first rock” then it’s a game that we can keep going back and back and back, till before we know it, we’re talking about shit from over a thousand years ago.
Oooh. Scary, they are carrying guns and making speeches about their rights being violated.
That sort of thing can only be carried out by criminals planning violence, right?
It is interesting to compare the actual causes of mass violence in the ME.
When one does so … one discovers that, for all that the Arab-Israeli matter tends to dominate the news, the actual numbers of casualties caused by this conflict are tiny by comparison to other, quite unrelated conflicts.
America has, within the confines of the Iraq conflict, killed or caused the death of more Arabs in the ME than all of the Arab-Israeli wars, riots and conflicts combined, since that nation was founded - by a factor of at least ten.
Though no-one knows the exact figures:
Contrast with the Arab-Israeli conflict. Again, much dispute over the figures.
As can be seen, the total numbers of Arabs (not just Palestinians) killed by all these conflicts combined, including five significant wars, ongoing rioting, etc., is less than 100,000 … compared to an estimated 1,000,000 for America’s involvement in Iraq.
However, that’s not the only measure.
Wars between other ME nations have been far more destructive than the Arab-Israeli wars.
The Iraq-Iran War, for example, killed over a million:
Or the war by the Syrians against the Muslim Brotherhood, estimates range between 25,000-40,000 dead:
Or the current Syrian Civil War, death toll around 400,000:
How about … numbers of Palestinians only? Arabs have killed on the same scale Palestinians in various conflicts as Israel (“Black September” in Jordan, the Lebanese Civil War, the “War of the Camps”, etc.).
Point is this: the notion that the situation in Israel is the biggest deal in the ME is purely a creation of media attention. It is not based on how objectively destructive the various Arab-Israeli conflicts have been.
Well, I don’t think I’d aim for the people standing around him.
But if I’d gun that rock-thrower down for what he’s doing — which, yeah, I’d like to think that I would — then I figure I’d do it even if people are standing around him, because the alternative is, what, let him keep throwing rocks so long as other folks stand near him? That doesn’t seem right; but if you for some reason want to argue that it does, then, what, do I get to shout Turnabout Is Fair Play and stop him from attacking me by likewise standing next to someone?
(Heck, do I get to attack him, so long as my Get-Out-Of-Consequences-Free card is standing next to me? Is that the deal you’re offering? I was willing to shoot back only if the other guy starts something; but there’s something magical about having a guy stand next to me, so now I can shoot first? Is that how this works? Why?)
Keep in mind that I think you’re woefully incorrect.
So how many nations have their embassy in Jerusalem and how many have them elsewhere? Is what the USA is doing exceptional or unexceptional in terms of where their embassy to Israel is located?
The US and Guatemala are the only two so far, but Paraguay has announced they are moving there too. There are consulates in Jerusalem, but that’s not the same thing.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - cite.
You probably don’t even know who it was that threw the rock. Who else are you going to aim at than some random people in the general vicinity in which you think the rock came?
Sure, they are rocks. You have a helmet and shield.
You can have the moral high ground over your opponent, or you can try to hit lower than him. It’s your choice.
Not if the person next to you is also wearing armor, carrying a shield, and firing into the crowd.
None of your strawman here is in any way related to the situation, and is actually barely coherent. If you want to commit violence, you are going to commit violence, and you are going to justify it after the fact in whatever way you find to be convenient. None of your little games here make any difference. If you want to shoot people, you will find a way to justify it, and even feel honored about taking another person’s life who was causing you no harm.
It is your choice, don’t try to make it sound like someone took away your agency here.
So, it is your understanding that a rock thrown at a person wearing riot gear and carrying riot shields is as dangerous as bullets fired at people wearing no armor? I believe that’s a ridiculously naive and ignorant thing to believe, but it’s up to you.
:rolleyes:
You sound like aparthied apologists who loved to use whataboutery to deflect criticism of the regime. Like that great humanitarian George Will in this article.
It looks like it would smart. The concrete block would probably kill a little guy like me with my back messed up.
:rolleyes:
I’m not engaged in any “whataboutery” at all.
Nor am I seeking to deflect any criticism of any regime.
My point is a simple one - which you can argue against if you care to: that the Arab-Israeli conflicts are far overblown in terms of objective importance in the ME, where such matters are measured objectively, mainly because the Arab-Israeli conflicts have more coverage than much more significant conflicts in the same part of the world.
This says exactly nothing about who was ‘justified’ in any of these conflicts!
How on Earth do you get from that, to ‘you sound like people who engage in deflecting criticism of the aparthied regime’?
I can’t imagine what kind of parents would bring a baby anywhere in the vicinity of such a protest. It isn’t like they are known to be peaceful protests – quite the opposite. As a parent, I would keep my baby far away from them!