moving US embassy to Jerusalem thread

[aceplace57]

It’s amazing how many people think the US controls policy in Israel.

We recognized their chosen capital. Just like we recognize the capital of France as Paris and the capital of Germany as Berlin. It was Bonn until 1999.

Israel can still give the Palestinians a piece of Jerusalem in a peace place.That’s entirely up to Israel’s leaders to decide.

[Ravenman]

@Uzi

Moving the capitol? The capitol of Israel is Jerusalem and has been for quite awhile. Recognizing that is no different than recognizing Washington as the capitol of the US. That some people don’t like reality is no reason for not acknowledging it.

Except that literally nobody has a competing claim to any part of Washington, nor has anyone been involved in trying to broker peace between the United States and anyone else making a territorial claim.

And of course, the US had been viewed over the last several decades as an honest broker in peace talks. The responses in this thread to the effect of telling Palestinians that they are to blame, or that they should just suck it up, appear to be the same thoughts dominating the debate inside the Administration. Having those thoughts drive the debate is antithetical to the position of being an honest broker. So yeah, it’s a big deal.

[Velocity]

In Trump’s defense, he’s doing what the 1995 law says the United States should do, and multiple presidents simply kept deferring and delaying indefinitely. And Jerusalem is indeed the capitol.

[Ravenman]

@Velocity

In Trump’s defense, he’s doing what the 1995 law says the United States should do, and multiple presidents simply kept deferring and delaying indefinitely. And Jerusalem is indeed the capitol.

But I don’t think anyone in the world regarded the US Congress as an honest broker in peace talks. Arguing, “But I’m just carrying out the will of Congress” is pretty much confirmation that the United States should not be regarded as an honest broker.

[Little_Nemo]

@adaher

Actually, Congress was pretty much unanimous in wanting us to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol. That means that a lot more people want it than Trump supporters. The wisdom of the move can certainly be questioned, but it’s certainly what Congress wants and probably the public as well.

I would speculate that most of the Congressmen who passed resolutions calling for the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital were acting no differently that Congressmen who pass resolutions calling for the criminalization of abortions or the legalization of marijuana or the abolition of income taxes. Their intent was to make their voting base happy with a symbolic gesture. They didn’t intend for their resolution to actually have any effect.

[Gyrate]

@Ravenman

Except that literally nobody has a competing claim to any part of Washington, nor has anyone been involved in trying to broker peace between the United States and anyone else making a territorial claim.

I dunno - the Powhatans* might want it back.
*It was the Powhatans, yes? Or were they further south?

[Little_Nemo]

@Shodan

Clinton said he’d do it and didn’t. Bush said he’d do it and didn’t. Obama said Jerusalem was the capital and must remain undivided. Trump said he’d do it, and here we are.

Clinton, Bush, and Obama (and Reagan and Bush Sr) were all too smart to do it. Trump wasn’t.

[Little_Nemo]

@Uzi

Moving the capitol? The capitol of Israel is Jerusalem and has been for quite awhile. Recognizing that is no different than recognizing Washington as the capitol of the US. That some people don’t like reality is no reason for not acknowledging it.

Is the fact that it was a stupid decision a reason not to do it?

It’s the equivalent of burning a flag. You have the legal right to do it. But only idiots actually burn flags. Because it pisses off other people and that doesn’t help whatever your cause is.

[Velocity]

@Little_Nemo

Clinton, Bush, and Obama (and Reagan and Bush Sr) were all too smart to do it. Trump wasn’t.

So what was Trump and every post-Trump president supposed to do? Sign waivers indefinitely, every six months?

[Ravenman]

@Gyrate

I dunno - the Powhatans* might want it back.

Perhaps, but I haven’t noticed the Powhatan intifada in my many years of living here.

[aceplace57]

Alan Dershowitz wrote an interesting editorial on the historical background of Jerusalem and its importance to Judaism.

Somehow, I overlooked the importance of Obama’s UN Security Council Resolution last year. I didn’t understand how badly it hurt Israel.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/07/alan-dershowitz-why-trump-is-right-in-recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital.html

The outrageously one-sided Security Council Resolution declared that “any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem,” have “no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law.” This means, among other things, that Israel’s decision to build a plaza for prayer at the Western Wall — Judaism’s holiest site — constitutes a “flagrant violation of international law.” This resolution was, therefore, not limited to settlements in the West Bank, as the Obama administration later claimed in a bait-and-switch. The resolution applied equally to the very heart of Israel.

Before June 4, 1967, Jews were forbidden from praying at the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site. They were forbidden to attend classes at the Hebrew University at Mt. Scopus, which had been opened in 1925 and was supported by Albert Einstein. Jews could not seek medical care at the Hadassah Hospital on Mt. Scopus, which had treated Jews and Arabs alike since 1918. Jews could not live in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, where their forbearers had built homes and synagogues for thousands of years. These Judenrein prohibitions were enacted by Jordan, which had captured by military force these Jewish areas during Israel’s War of Independence, in 1948, and had illegally occupied the entire West Bank, which the United Nations had set aside for an Arab state. When the Jordanian government occupied these historic Jewish sites, they destroyed all the remnants of Judaism, including synagogues, schools and cemeteries, whose headstones they used for urinals. Between 1948 and 1967, the United Nations did not offer a single resolution condemning this Jordanian occupation and cultural devastation.

[up_the_junction]

That’s helpful isn’t it; a Fox Network editorial:

Here’s a two- sided 7-minute expression of views from last night, one of them was even born in Jerusalem: Trump’s Jerusalem announcement: Interview with Mark Regev and Ghada Karmi – BBC Newsnight - YouTube

[Morgenstern]

@aceplace57

I think it comes down to formally recognizing Israel’s capital.

It made sense to sidestep the thorny issue after they seized full control of it following the 1967,Six-Day War. I can understand waiting 20 years.

But, after 50 years, it’s a bit absurd to pretend Jerusalem isn’t the capital.

I don’t live there and have no dog in this fight.

I have observed the problems in Israel my entire life. The Palestinians have always been a thorny problem with no solution that both sides will accept

The solution certainly isn’t to poor gasoline on the fire as trump just did. That’s first tier stupidity, even for trump.

[Velocity]

Whatever the wisdom of doing or not doing something may be, you can’t let threats of violence be a factor in your decision. That rewards threats.

If Hamas or other groups see that threatening violence dissuades people from doing something, that’s positive reinforcement for Hamas.

[k9bfriender]

@Velocity

So what was Trump and every post-Trump president supposed to do? Sign waivers indefinitely, every six months?

Is it really that hard a thing to do, if the alternative is to throw gasoline on a smoldering fire?

[aceplace57]

@up_the_junction

That’s helpful isn’t it; a Fox Network editorial:

Here’s a two- sided 7-minute expression of views from last night, one of them was even born in Jerusalem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5juymXrh8KM&index=1&list=PLJxnQXiytA_Qc0B57aViue2G3DPet1Z0L

Thank you for the video link. Very interesting discussion.

I read Dershowitz’s column because I respect his legal career and his defense of civil liberties. I wish the column wasn’t published on Fox News. I guess he felt it needed a liberal voice.

It is a very well written and often informative column.

[Ludovic]

@Velocity

Whatever the wisdom of doing or not doing something may be, you can’t let threats of violence be a factor in your decision. That rewards threats.

This has no benefit to us. If you’re walking down the sidewalk and a random man dared you to knock a chip off his shoulder, should you do it? Otherwise you’ll be rewarding veiled threats!

[Shodan]

The US to the Palestinians: “Make peace or we will recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.”

No peace is made for twenty years.

The US: “OK, we now recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.”

The Palestinians: “No fair! We were just getting ready to cooperate! You aren’t an honest broker!”

Regards,
Shodan

[Ravenman]

@Velocity

Whatever the wisdom of doing or not doing something may be, you can’t let threats of violence be a factor in your decision. That rewards threats.

If Hamas or other groups see that threatening violence dissuades people from doing something, that’s positive reinforcement for Hamas.

But I don’t think anyone who follows this issue really cares what Hamas thinks: they are a radical organization that basically isn’t worth talking to. Nobody is suggesting that anyone do something to appease Hamas.

The issue is whether the decision pushes moderate Palestinians to take extreme steps. That is worth considering.

If we were talking about a domestic issue of whether some politician should endorse some policy or vote some way on a particular bill, obviously there could be extreme views on either side of such a debate. Most politicians would say, “Yeah, but I’m never going to win over those weirdos.” But if the politician thought that voting some way on a bill would lead to normal working-class voters taking to the streets, they would be wise to take a minute to consider what they were really trying to achieve, and whether the cost is worth it.

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

The US to the Palestinians: “Make peace or we will recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.”

No peace is made for twenty years.

The US: “OK, we now recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.”

The Palestinians: “No fair! We were just getting ready to cooperate! You aren’t an honest broker!”

Regards,
Shodan

And israel has no responsibility or agency in this?