In response to this thread, specifically Post #40:
Look, Dibble, you’re not so fucking stupid that you did not understand exactly what I meant. The troops in the field, whom **Der Trihs ** seems to hate with such pitiless intensity, do not make decisions about where they are posted. My son, my best friend’s son and the three young men from my town who were killed in that fucking mess had no goddamn say in where they were posted. They signed up to defend their country, goddamnit, not to go toppling dictators in places we have no fucking business going. So take your self-righteous horse shit and stick it up your ass. I am sick and goddamn tired of snarky smart-asses like you blaming the grunts on the ground for the worst decisions ever made by any U.S president ever. Knock it off, asshole.
Sunrazor, just to let you know, I changed your link so that it went to the thread instead of the reply to post box.
Wow. Since it was my thread that served as a catalyst for this, I can only say, well, you said was I was thinking. I was considering a thread asking why people like your target like to blame the troops for the messes their superiors get them into. So I’ll say this…thanks Sunrazor, from soldier just doing their jobs and wanting to go home.
Am I misreading this, or was your son killed in Iraq?
No, I wrote it poorly. My son is in the Middle East, on deployment from Hawaii for six months. He doesn’t want to be there and I don’t want him there, but neither of us has that choice.
Three young men from our town have died in Iraq. I know their parents; none of them wanted their sons posted to Iraq, but none had any choice in the matter. Another couple with whom we are friends has just seen their son posted there. They didn’t want him sent there, and he didn’t want to go, but he and they had no choice. And my son’s best friend in high school (they were each other’s best man at their respective weddings) has been in Iraq for over a year. He doesn’t want to be there, but he has no choice in where he is posted.
Sunrazor: I’m very sorry to hear about the people close to you that have died in Iraq. I’m sure it’s a terrible personal tragedy, and must be very difficult.
However, it’s not clear to me that **MD **is saying, as **DT **was, that he wants them to die instead of coming home alive. He was correcting something you said which was, technically, not accurate. People do choose whether or not to go into the military in the US. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him to explain more precisely what he means. Perhaps he will do that in this thread.
I know that **DT **likes to spew venom around the board, and I’ve seen **MD **stick up for him in the past. I hope this will not be another one of those instances, but I guess we’ll find out.
Thank you for serving, son. Keep your head down. And write to your mama – she misses you.
You’re just not listening, are you? Yes, of course they volunteered to serve – but they did NOT volunteer to be sacrificed to the egoes and stupidity of a dim-witted president and his equally unqualified cronies. They’re NOT defending America where they are, and they know it, and they want more than anything to come home. How much clearer can I make this?
Unfortunately, Mama’s dead. I’m older than you may think I am. 
But speaking for myself, I joined up after college because a lot of places I looked for emplyment told me “You need more experience”. So I joined the national guard. But after training and returning home I wanted to get out of town again. My uncle, an old army vet himself, told me I should go on active duty for awhile and see the world. So I did, thinking I’d only do it for a few years and then find a “normal” job. (and Desert Shield/storm occured almost the day I reported in, so yes, I was there)
Afterwards though, I found the job I wanted was right in front of me. I’m a technician, and I had the job I wanted, I was living in Europe and the military has a lot of great and dedicated folks who were my friends and coworkers. So I stayed in. Like anyone thats put on a uniform I can complain about some things, but for the most part its been great.
But thats why I get irked when people say stuff like in the other thread “I’d kill all of the troops”. Thats BS. They aren’t mindless automotons like Storm Troopers from Star Wars or something. They are your friends, neighbors, and regular folks who do demanding jobs and don’t get paid a lot for it either. They are mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, just like everyone else. Being put in harms way is not their decision. Blaming them and wishing them harm is reprehensible. I guess the posters you’re pitting are saying they’d like to kill me or my friends…I wouldn’t advise them to try it. They should save their energy for the elected official that sent the troops there. (though I don’t advise trying to kill them either.)
I hope your son comes back safe and well, Sunrazor. My job is support, so know that we’re doing all we can to make that happen.
Mr Dibble won’t give you a pass on this, I’m afraid. Any soldier who didn’t immediately desert when they got orders to go to Iraq is immoral (amoral? I got all confused on this last time).
Der Trihs wants them dead, no BS.
[ nitpick ]
Does any outfit, (other than the USCG, perhaps), have a five or six year enlistment period? Any grunt in Iraq, it would seem, should have had to go through at least one enlistment or re-up since it became clear that only really arcane specialties are liable to be able to avoid spending time getting Meopotamian dust on their boots.
I would not have interrupted the original thread to make such a point, but since that is the essence of this rant, it seems pertinent.
Of course, if the persons affected have been snatched up in a Stop Loss program, my nitpick is nullified.
[ /nitpick ]
Well, Dibble raises an interesting point*. If you’re a soldier, and you receive an order that you know is morally wrong, at what point do you just say “hell no?” And how much are you shielded from moral responsibility for your actions by saying, “I’m just following orders?” Is there a continuum, with “We’re shipping you off to Iraq” on one end, and “Machine-gun this village full of women and children**” on the other, and each soldier has to decide where he is going to draw the line?
- No, I don’t agree with him here, and I certainly don’t share Der Trihs’ wish that all our soldiers in Iraq die.
** As a literal product of the Vietnam War, I naturally think of the My Lai massacre when pondering this question.
So at any time, a soldier can just desert because they don’t want to follow orders? Got it.
I don’t think I need to point out how stupid that is, do I? Hell, my boss told me to do something that I didn’t want to. I didn’t know I could just say “Fuck that.” and go sit at my desk and surf the internet.
Its not rocket science. The military follows the orders given to them. I don’t think any of the troops in the ME right now want to be there. They’re probably counting on people back home showing their displeasure enough to get them out of there. But some folks it seems want to blame them instead of pointing the finger at the officials that sent them there.
Well, thank God for that, at least. Hope he stays safe.
There was recently a Pit thread with just that theme, “Story of 2 Soldiers” or something like that, where Mr Dibble expounded on exactly that. Even touched on My Lai. I won’t try to argue for him (or with him), but you can see where he’s coming from if you read that thread.
I didn’t say it was my POV, but here’s a link to a Pit Thread where Mr Dibble leaves no questions about his stance on the matter.
as a soldier close to retirement and a former recruiter I can tell you thats not how it works. Trust me, I’m against the Iraq thing. I even said it was a mistake when people were first being deployed. But its not my decision.
If you walked into a recruiting station and signed up you go where they tell you to go. I hated recruiting for various reasons I won’t go into, but I think we all know standards have been lowered because people are not this war. (and rightly so in my opinion…the against the war thing, not the standards thing). But if you are a soldier you follow your lawful orders. The entire structure of the military would fall apart if that wasn’t so. Thats why I say don’t blame the troops. Blame the people that give them the orders.
One the other hand, is a soldier able to say “I was following my orders” and be absolved of any moral responsibility for his actions? That line of reasoning goes from zero to Godwin in about five seconds flat. Where do you draw the line?
I haven’t been at that line yet, though Icame close to it during Desert Storm. But what would you suggest? The troops should just say the hell with it and throw down their weapons? They didn’t choose to go there. So a better quesion is how would you do it? How would you pre-iraq have structured the military that would allowe them to not be deployed? Or do you honestly think the army, navy. maine corps and air force are unneeded?
Sorry if I offended you, Duke. I didn’t mean to say it was your POV. I just got caught up in the moment. My apologies.