Mr. Dibble is a fatuous asshole. Today, anyway.

[Jolly_Roger]

When I said I’m tired of saying this, I meant the same thing over and over. Which is kind of what we’re all doing.

@MrDibble

You are all arguing that they don’t have a choice. I’m saying they did, when they chose to enlist with the chance of going to Iraq.

It’s morally equivalent to choosing to drive drunk, where there’s a chance you could kill someone. You might make it home OK, in which case the moral weight is , IMO, not as big as if you actually hurt someone.
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This is actually where we disagree. I’m not the one who pitted you btw.

Driving drunk is a crime, whether you realize you’re drunk or not. Enlisting in the military is not a crime.

The war in Iraq is a mess. We all know that. But simply joining the service does not morally taint a person. As I said, most enlistees don’t go to Iraq. You can’t know the intent of every single person who has enlisted so prejudging them is unfair. It doesn’t matter if you like the military or not, blaming the soldiers for the governments decision is BS, given the structure and nature of the military. No one has been ordered to rape and murder, and soldiers that do are punished.

No one has been able to come up with a better way of running things other than “We don’t need a military” or “They should just not follow orders”. Those ideas won’t work in reality. You and I both know they have to follow lawful orders given to them. The difference is I blame the administration for putting them in this position. You think its the soldiers fault for being a soldier in the first place.

If you have a problem with the military, fine. Its not like you’re the only person to dislike the service for one reason or another. If someone is somehow being culpable for the Iraq fiasco by joining the military for whatever reason, then maybe we all have to be culpable in America. They ought to put signs up at immigration warning folks that they will have to share the taint of this by becoming a US citizen. I don’t think thats a fair judgment either, just as becoming a republican doesn’t automatically mean Bush makes your moral choices for you. But then I tend to paint people with a finer brush than most.

Oh, and just FYI, I was not voluntarily involved in recruiting, I didn’t want to be a recruiter. But I follow the lawful orders given to me and to be honest, who are you to judge me in any way even if I volunteered? I could have volunteered because it would have stationed me close to home, or I may have wanted the training person to person training in recruiting school. Judging someone for volunteering to be a recruiter prior to 2003 or after would depend on their intent, not the job wouldn’t it?

[MrDibble]

@Jolly Roger

Driving drunk is a crime, whether you realize you’re drunk or not. Enlisting in the military is not a crime.

Good thing I’ve never argued about anything being criminal. Enlisting in the military post-2003 is slightly immoral. Morality has nothing to do with legality.

@Jolly Roger

You can’t know the intent of every single person who has enlisted so prejudging them is unfair.

Intent isn’t relevant

@Jolly Roger

It doesn’t matter if you like the military or not, blaming the soldiers for the governments decision is BS, given the structure and nature of the military.

I’m not blaming them for the government’s decisions - I’m blaming them for their own decisions, which serve to support the government’s actions.

@Jolly Roger

No one has been ordered to rape and murder, and soldiers that do are punished.

That’s a red herring - I’ve not even addressed rape and murder except in passing.

@Jolly Roger

You and I both know they have to follow lawful orders given to them.

No, they don’t. Once again: read up on the End Conscription Campaign. I’ve known some of those guys. In my opinion, that’s the moral way to deal with an immoral war.

@Jolly Roger

The difference is I blame the administration for putting them in this position. You think its the soldiers fault for being a soldier in the first place.

After 2003? Yes, I do.

@Jolly Roger

If someone is somehow being culpable for the Iraq fiasco by joining the military for whatever reason, then maybe we all have to be culpable in America.

Well, at least 51% of you, yes.

@Jolly Roger

They ought to put signs up at immigration warning folks that they will have to share the taint of this by becoming a US citizen.

Well, only when they start paying taxes :rolleyes:

@Jolly Roger

I don’t think thats a fair judgment either, just as becoming a republican doesn’t automatically mean Bush makes your moral choices for you.

Never said anything about soldiers not making their own moral choices. That’s kind of my point - being in the military does not dissolve your moral culpability. “I was following orders” doesn’t have any moral weight at all. I’ll repeat, louder: “I WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS” HAS NO MORAL WEIGHT.

@Jolly Roger

But then I tend to paint people with a finer brush than most.

Oh, and just FYI, I was not voluntarily involved in recruiting, I didn’t want to be a recruiter. But I follow the lawful orders given to me and to be honest, who are you to judge me in any way even if I volunteered?

Well, that’s just silly - I’ve already covered who I am to judge you - I’m me. My moral judgment has all the weight of the photons on your screen - ignore it if you don’t like it. If it rankles, though, maybe you might want to look into why that is…

@Jolly Roger

I could have volunteered because it would have stationed me close to home, or I may have wanted the training person to person training in recruiting school. Judging someone for volunteering to be a recruiter prior to 2003 or after would depend on their intent, not the job wouldn’t it?

No, it wouldn’t. You face the weight of your moral choices regardless of intent. I think I’ve made that clear. “The road to hell…” and all that.

[MrDibble]

So, we about done here?

[Lust4Life]

@Jolly Roger

Wow. Since it was my thread that served as a catalyst for this, I can only say, well, you said was I was thinking. I was considering a thread asking why people like your target like to blame the troops for the messes their superiors get them into. So I’ll say this…thanks Sunrazor, from soldier just doing their jobs and wanting to go home.

Dont worry J.R. civvies cant honestly give you any sort of realistic feedback about what your doing .If you hate what your doing then you can still look back with pride on what you’ve done .

If you think that going back to your home town and doing the same thing every day for the the rest of your life but receiving the total respect of your fellow citizens is for you then go for it mate ,you have my respect

But if you want to carry on living until you die ,think about what you really want to do.

And I’ll leave it there .