Mr. Moto, are you out...

The BBQ Pit
41

First of all, what the hell? I’m defending teaching atheism on the grounds that it deserves the same standing as teaching religion, and you come in and act like I’m attacking atheism. I think you missed my point.

Second of all, I think you’re wrong anyway. I am familiar with the principles of logic. In fact, there are many systems of logic, not all of which need be applicable to the real world. Deductive logic doesn’t contain any principle of the form “it’s irrational to believe something without evidence.” Other systems of logic may, but which of these systems should be considered to apply to the real world is the subject of much debate. (Why do you think there’s a branch of philosophy called “logic”?)

Furthermore, what evidence do you have for the assertion that it’s irrational to believe something with no evidence one way or the other? None, I suspect – it’s your opinion. My opinion is that it’s irrational to believe something in spite of significant evidence to the contrary. Moreover, I’d say it’s irrational to believe something for no reason. But if someone’s gut intuition tells them there’s a God (for example), then I’d say trusting that intuition (which has given them verifiably correct conclusions with regard to other matters) isn’t irrational, given that they have no evidence to the contrary. Hell, I’d say that’s the same reason I believe that the data received by my senses corresponds to a physical reality – I don’t have any evidence that it does, but my gut feeling is “the world is real.” I’m going to believe that until presented evidence to the contrary. (Note: I’m not saying people should believe things based solely on their gut feelings, only that to do so is, in my opinion, not irrational – and I certainly don’t think there’s universal concensus that it is.)

But, this is a huge digression: the point of my comment was to suggest why someone would want to instill atheism in their kids. (which you said you didn’t understand) My answer was that it’s for the same reason that someone wants to teach their kids religion – they’re passing on their beliefs. But if you already think belief in God is irrational, then why the hell wouldn’t you understand someone wanting to steer their kid away from an irrational belief?

42

To me, Mr. Moto’s statement seems to pretty clearly imply that he considers mentioning heaven a necessary component of an honest response. If he should clarify that that isn’t what he meant, then I’ll withdraw my criticism.

43

Any atheist who did this would be copping out like six ways from Sunday. You make it sound as if the truth is some sort of child abuse. They’re not made out of bone china fercrissakes. Tell the kid no, she’s dead now but you can always remember how much you liked her and how she helped you to learn to read or whatever. This fear of upsetting children…I just dont get it.

44

I’ll just bet you don’t.

45

First of all, I would not bring it up at such a time. I would only be prepared to answer questions about it.

And the answers I would have would be that some people do believe in heaven, and some of her friends probably believe in it. I would explain to her that it wasn’t a belief that Mommy and Daddy had, for whatever reasons that was. I would clarify what those beliefs were, and answer whatever questions were asked.

Above all, I would stress that it was okay for different people to believe different things. I wouldn’t press her for her beliefs at this point, but I would let her know that whatever they were, they were okay ones to hold.

46

In that case, I don’t see anything objectionable about that position. In fact, that’s basically the same thing I’d do.

47

You are claiming atheism is just another religion. Most atheists would consider that an attack on atheism, or at least a profound misunderstanding of what religon is.

48

Oh spare me.

I never said to lie (when it comes to death, what is the truth anyway? I’ve got an open enough mind that if heaven exists, neat. I may not believe, but I’m not arrogant enough to assert that I KNOW THE TRUTH no matter what I believe) to the kid, and I never in any way implied child abuse.

49

No, I’m claiming that belief that there is no God is a religious belief. I even took the time to define what I meant by a religious belief, namely a belief about a religious question (as opposed to a scientific question.) Claiming that belief in the non-existence of God is a religious belief (as I defined the term) doesn’t imply that atheism is a religion. In fact, I never said “atheism is a religion”, nor do I think that it is, since religions have other components that atheism lacks (e.g., traditions, rituals, etc.)

In my further comments, I made the point that I don’t consider belief in God any more irrational than belief that there is no God. Are you seriously telling me that most atheists would be offended by someone claiming that belief in God is not irrational? I don’t see how this can be considered an attack on atheism (nor was it intended as such) – rather, it’s a defense of theism against the accusation that it’s irrational.

50

No, I am offended by your claim that belief in God is equally rational. In the absense of evidence, the only rational action is to not believe it.

51

But there are no "Blue Lagoon"s on Earth.

It’s been awhile since anthropology for me, but I do remember learning that a belief structure of some kind was a delineation of any human group-in contrast to animals that may well work together for a common good. Primitive people had burial rituals, made sacrifices to whatever gods they believed in etc.

I think that the impulse to believe in the supernatural is a fairly fundamental one. Note that I am not defending the merits of any particular religious construct at all. Nor am I saying that such is a requirement to be human.

Believing that in some way, a dead person is looking out for you, over you, goes to a reward, whatever, is an understandable impulse when faced with grief or sudden death. Especially for a 5 year old, who most likely still plays pretend–the pink unicorn is very real to 5 year olds. (Not THE pink unicorn, but pink unicorns in general.)

What is not to understand here? So, if we apply that knowledge to the fact that this little girl may well have questions re her teacher’s death-- it is no big jump in logic, and certainly no disrespect to atheism, to state that this little girl may need some info re religious beliefs, given the societal structure that she is in.

Or is this the time to tout the “superiority” of atheism? Is this the time to ridicule other’s beliefs?

I don’t understand the drive to NOT allow discussion of meta-physics (at whatever level) in such a case as this. If I were this kid, and Daddy told me that Mrs D is rotting in the ground and never more shall she be–I’d think, hell no! Or maybe I’d think, cool! Or gross! Who knows? But on the chance that kidlet MAY have more questions, the broaching of the subject is not out of line.

Loss is difficult for all, but can be hardest on kids. Now, I seriously doubt that this kid has suffered any real trauma from this, given the short period of time she knew the teacher, but shouldn’t we be looking at how to assist the kid in coming to terms with this? And if that way differs significantly from her peer group’s, shouldn’t that be addressed?

IMO, any atheist who insists on Their Way as the only Way is as bad as an religious person insisting that Their Way is the only Way. BOTH deserve condemnation and criticism for their intolerance.

(I am not saying that the OP is any way evincing the above rigid traits. I am just speaking to the topic).

52

Exactly. Not to mention, to an atheist it’s NOT the answer to a religious question, because religion is a null concept. If I think apple pie is vile no matter which apple pie you offer me, you really can’t expect me to tell you which one is my favorite.

53

Mr. Moto, you are a graceless ass. Pochacco has replied to you, making it clear what she thinks of your comments. Do you apologize? Hell, no. Instead you graciously inform her:

How thoughtful of you, you condescending twit.

54

Geez, why all of this venom toward Mr. Moto? The OP in the other thread requested that any further debate on what Moto suggested be confined to this Pit thread, he praised (it seemed to me) her handling of what she told her child, and agreed to comply with her wish to refrain from debating it further in her thread. Condescending twit? Sheesh.

55

FWIW, I’m a guy.

56

I must have misunderstood, then. You said:

If you don’t bet that she did go to heaven, then you would have lied by saying that. Obviously if you are sincere in such a statement, then you’re not lying–but then you’re also not Pochacco. :slight_smile:

My problem is not with people who honestly tell their kids that they believe someone went to heaven. My problem is with people who do not believe in heaven but who lie about their beliefs to their children. I think that’s a very poor idea.

Daniel

57

Sorry, dude. I formed that misconception based on absolutely no evidence.

58

I happen to agree with your second statement. I consider your opinion expressed in the first sentence a graceless and condescending claim to your being the Purveyor of Absolute Truth on a par with the most egregious of self-righteous evangelists.

Because I and my co-religionists weigh the evidence that may or may not point to the existence of a God differently than you does not make your opinion about that evidence right and ours wrong.

The egotism of a typical fundamentalist and the egotism of a typical atheist are about on a par, IMO. And my apologies to any fundamentalists and atheists who happen to believe in freedom of religion and don’t issue supercilious ukases of this sort.

59

As I have said, I disagree with this view about what is or isn’t rational. (see my comments above)

But furthermore: I’m not a religious person (i.e., I’m not affiliated with any religion). While I believe that there is some sort of god, I acknowledge the opposite belief (that there is no God) to be equally rational. I acknowledge that I might be wrong about whether or not God exists, and atheists might be right. Furthermore, I think atheism is at least as rational as any religion, and more rational than some. I doubt you could find a theist with a more positive view of atheism. And yet, you’re saying that because I refuse to condemn belief in God as irrational, you’re offended by me. Not that you merely disagree with me, but that you actually take offense at the fact that I don’t consider a belief contradictory to yours to be irrational.

If this is the case, you must be offended by virtually every theist on the face of the earth. In which case, I think you’re absurdly thin-skinned. I’m not even saying you’re wrong about whether or not God exists; I’m just saying “I don’t think all the people who disagree with you are being irrational.”

I’m not sure what you mean by a “null concept.” Surely atheists acknowledge religion exists; they just think those beliefs are wrong. It’s not my intent to imply that religion is more appropriate for answering the question of whether God exists than atheism. I’m using “religious question” to mean that it’s not the sort of question that can be settled by examining empirical evidence. (I.e., you can’t do an experiment to prove whether or not God exists.) If you think I’ve made a poor choice of words for conveying this, fine, feel free to suggest a better one. But that’s just a matter of semantics.

60

From the MPSIMS thread:

Bolding mine.

You’ve already taught her the wrong thing by saying this.

My parents taught me that people all over the world have different religions. They didn’t preach whether they were right or wrong; they just left it at that. I was raised Catholic, but my parents respected me enough to show me the way they believed, but to leave the ultimate decision of my faith up to me.

I’m part Native and have chosen to follow that path now. You have no place saying that my beliefs are “not true”. How would you know? You’re not omnipotent, and neither am I. I wouldn’t presume to tell you your beliefs weren’t true, just as I wouldn’t presume to tell a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc.

Varied religions all have their own worth and beauty and are one of the things show just how wonderful humanity can be. To say that someone’s religion is “not true” is squashing that, and it exhibits ignorance. This is how wars get started.