Mrs. Harris, ummm....

Great Debates
21

I second, third, and fourth that. I think Spiritus should receive the award for Most Balanced, Reasonable and Articulate Poster.

I am confused…I’ve heard that she can just ignore anything the Fl. Supreme court tells her, even if they tell her to count them, and that THAT might be the basis for the constitutional crisis that has been bandied about since the beginning. Is that really possible? Can anyone say one way or another?

Incidentally, an interesting pile o’ facts from MSNBC about Ms. Harris:

She has hired a law firm to rep her interests, and according to MSNBC:“The firm also confirmed today that it is working with Mac Stipanovich, a Republican operative who ran Bush’s 1994 gubernatorial campaign… Sjostrom did not deny Stipanovich is helping the firm represent Harris.”
Also:

" The bunches of flowers filling her anteroom testified to Harris’s growing popularity among conservatives and Republican loyalists nationwide."
And of course:

"Harris traveled to New Hampshire to campaign for the Texas governor in the state’s primary, and with Jeb Bush, was a delegate to the Republican convention. She recruited H. Norman Schwarzkopf Jr., a prominent Bush supporter who spoke to the GOP convention and taped phone messages for Bush in Florida, to do a taxpayer-funded get-out-the-vote commercial just before the election. "

But hey…she can’t possibly be accused of being anything less than absolutely fair minded and unbiased. Her desire to run for the Senate in two years doesn’t have the tiniest bearing on how she’s making her decisions! Heaven forfend.

Have you seen those lovely flowers, by the way?

Sigh…

22

Interesting scenario.

It would indeed be a Constitutional crisis (the Florida Constitution that is) if Ms. Harris refused to follow the rulings of the Florida Supreme Court. What happens if she refuses to include the hand counts, the Florida Supreme Court determines that to be an abuse of discretion, but Harris then ignores that ruling (and a subsequent order from the lower court) and certifies the results sans hand-count anyway? (I can almost hear Harris saying, “The Florida Supreme Court has made their law. Now let them enforce it!”)

That would be a classic Constitutional stand-off between the judicial and executive branches of the Florida Government.

The court’s only remedy would be to hold Harris in contempt, and throw her in jail until she obeyed the order. But what if she simply waits it out in jail until after the electoral college meets?

I suppose the court could also issue an injunction ordering the Republican electors not to cast their votes. What if they did so anyway? Would the US Senate count the votes?

It could get wild in theory, but I have to believe the Bush camp would not let things devolve to that undignified level. It would shred any last remnants of legitimacy for a Bush Presidency.

23

The Supreme court ruling simply said that the counting does not have to stop, but Ms Harris does not have to accept an amended vote, and has stated that she has no intention of doing so.

I just hope that this woman has no intention of getting reelected. She did some serious foot-shooting by her appearance of partiality, and her refusal to at least PRETEND to be anything but.

She was already on the hot seat for using tax-payer money for a “get out the vote” campaign featuring Stormin’ Norman, a known Bush supporter. You would think she’d learn. Jeb didn’t even support her, I don’t know why she’s licking his boots.

And one more thing…why couldn’t these guys have had more diverse last names? I seem to screw up their names quite often, including the latest spoonerism: Bore and Gush. Oh for the days of Dukakis.

24

Right. My hypothetical takes things a few steps ahead. the steps:[ul][li]Hand count comes back with enough new Gore votes to give Gore the Presidency.[/li][li]Ms. Harris, “exercising her discretion,” refuses to accept the hand counts, and certifies the results without them, giving Bush the victory.[/li][li]The Gore team challenges this decision in its pending lawsuit.[/li][li]The lower court judge rules that Harris has abused her discretion and has acted arbitrarily. He orders her to include the hand count results.[/li][li]Harris appeals to Florida Supreme Court.[/li][li]Florida Supreme Court affirms judge’s order, says Harris must comply.[/li][li]Harris refuses, certifies results without hand count.[/li][li]Judge orders Harris jailed for contempt of court.[/li][li]Harris waits it out in jail until Electoral College meets.[/ul][/li]
Do the Republican electors send their votes in?
Does the court enjoin them from doing so?
Would the U.S. Senate count their votes?

25

of course she doesn’t have to accept the count. But, the count had stopped which left the question open. Now it will be resolved. Either the votes will be there or they won’t.

If the votes are NOT there, then Bush wins, and wins without the cloud over his head about “gee, I wonder what would have happened if they’d counted those votes”.

If the votes ARE there, well, lots of differenct scenes are possible. And the possibilities run the gamut.

Either way, I believe we are ALL better off with that question answered, regardless of outcome.

And, personally, I don’t think Ms. Harris is looking for another elected office at all.

26

just read comment from one of the team of lawyers before the FSC - they likened Ms. Harris’s refusal to accept the hand counts to the situation where a police officer ORDERS you to stop, then writes you a ticket for obstructing traffic.

So, if she did order the hand counts to stop, and they did, pending the results of a court order to continue, can she legitimately then claim the county made no reasonable effort to get the results in on time?

27

I’m wondering if this might turn into a footrace. If the absentee ballots are tabulated and the results certified Saturday, is it then too late for any handcounts?

28

Oh yeah; I left out the inevitable Republican lawsuit challenging the accuracy of the hand counts. This is where they produce all the loose chads swept up from the floor of the counting rooms, and show comparative photos of dimpled chads and pregnant chads, and present testimony of Republican observers saying that Counter X was waggling the cards too much when she counted them, and…

Could take weeks to wade through all that testimony, if the court were to allow it.

I’m not sure what the court would do if faced with the prospect of a lengthy evidentiary hearing over the accuracy of the hand count. I suspect they might just defer to the judgment of the local canvassing boards, and rule that those boards had full discretion to resolve any disputes over which votes would be counted.

29

No. The only hard and fast deadline is the date the Electoral College meets. (December 18?)

Until then, the court’s ruling means the certified totals could be amended by late returns. If those returns are accepted by the Secretary of State Harris. And she can’t reject them arbitrarily.

I believe there is a hearing tomorrow on whether her attempted “pre-emptive rejection” of the late returns will stand.

30

wring That’s exactly what she already did in PBC. On Tues morning A bunch of folks came in before 7:00am to start the hand count so that they could get them in on time (there was no conceivable way this could happen, but I suppose it akin to it’s easier to ask for forgivness than permission) which was Tues at 5:00pm. Before they could start Harris ordered them to cease and desist, thus they had to fax in a certified copy of the original recounts to have ANY of the county’s votes count.

spoke- If your scenario were to happen I think the likely final step would be the US Supreme Court would step in and make all of Florida’s ballots invald, thus the electors wouldn’t be allowed to go and cast a vote. Remember they don’t have to be there for the electoral college votes to be official.

Personally, I think Harris would eat her young for another office (but that’s just my opinion).

31

I freely admit to not having read through this entire thread.

That said, I just wanted to mention that your starting of this thread has raised my estimation of you a full notch.

It is never easy to question the motivations of someone who holds the success of your chosen candidate in their hands.

Again, Bravo.

::tips hat::

PS: Haven’t seen you around the recipe thread lately, drop on by. You are more welcome than ever.

32

Actually, I figured if I mentioned it first nobody could use it against me. I’ll build up good will and a reputation for being able to see both sides of the argument.

Then, once everybody trust me I can strike.

Don’t show anybody this email though.

33

A couple of points:

Everyone in any position of power in Florida is heavily biased. I am beginning to see why George Washington did not like political parties.

There was a request made for Roberts to recuse herself from the Palm Beach election committee after bing accused of manhandling and manipulating the ballots. She refused.

The Palm Beach election board requested a clarification from the proper judge on whether or not they were legally allowed to handcount. He said no. The Florida Attorney General, who has a policy of not getting involved in matters such as these, weighed in with his own opinion and said go ahead. He was the Gore campaign manager in Florida.
Jeb Bush has recused himself.

Harris (sec. of state)was involved in the Bush Florida campaign and she has not recused herself. She is trying to hold the line at the 5pm Tuesday deadline for accepting certification from the counties.

There are so many court cases I can’t keep them all straight, but one of the judges was donating money to Gore’s campaign and had been involved in his campaign. He has not recused himself.

Not one of the Florida Supreme Court was appointed by a Republican.

My understanding of today’s ruling was that it was a non-ruling of sorts. All they said was that if they wanted to, they could go ahead and keep counting. They said nothing about whether the count would mean anything. My guess is that they figure PB should go ahead and do the counting so they can see if they really do need to rule on anything. If it turns out the counting does not change the outcome, then they avoided making a difficult and messy decision for no reason at all.

I do not think Harris ordered them to stop counting in the first place. If someone has a contradictory cite, I’ll accept it.
There is another court case where 4 judges recused themselves.

Democratic Election boards in democratic couties are demanding the handcounts.

The point was made that it took Palm Beach 9 hours to count 1% of their ballots. Even if they were able to triple their rate, work 12 hours a day and not take a day off, they would still not finish until Dec. 12th at this point.
If the Florida election is too screwed up to declare a winner, then the Florida legislature picks who goes.

The US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction in the picking of the electoral memembers as far as I can tell. Certain states have sent both delegations votes in in the distant past. It was up to Congress to decide what to do.

This is how I see it:

Either government officials should have to maintain an air of neutrality for their ENTIRE time on office (elected or appointed), or we need to accept that the people making the decisions will be partisan. As long as they stick to the rule of law, anything that should be up to their discretion should remain that way. These are the people that the people of Florida (or could be any state) chose to make these decisions. You don’t get to change horses midstride.

With the exception of Jeb Bush, who has a family involvement, I don’t think anyone on either side should recuse themselves. Otherwise Florida is going to run out of people to run the process and make decisions. I figure that the partisanship is part of the process.

I see Florida as a Cluster#### right now, and I’m willing to put all the chips on the absentee ballots.

I think Gore has the Isreal/Jewish/Lieberman connection in his favor, while Bush has the military thing going for him.
I also think any election board that is using punch cards in the 2004 elections should be sent to Texas and executed. It’s time for a major overhaul of our voting system. From the way we register, to the machines we use. It is obvious that the system is broken. I do not know what the margin of error for this election is, but I’m guessing somewhere around 5,000 for the state of Florida. Since neither candidate will win by that much, we will never know who really won Florida. We need a margin of error that comes down to double digits per state, not to thousands.

Yes I’m conservative. Yes my opinion is a little slanted. No I will not recuse myself from posting on this issue.:slight_smile:

34

From the NY TImes (quickie look, didn’t wanna dig through yesterday, day before)

"The Florida Supreme Court denied Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris’ request to block hand recounts and consolidate related lower court actions. "

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/politics/AP-Recount-At-A-Glance.html

35

but I’m hearing from all kinds of places that Bush’s support is eroding in the face of this.

Whatever the underlying realities at work, the fact is that the Bush camp took a calculated risk in letting Harris be that incredibly bold. It was very foolish.

We are all very hip to the details, obviously, but I was thinking today that history likes to simplify and it will remember this as a contest between a guy who wanted to count the votes and a guy who didn’t want to count them, and I don’t think there can be much debate about which one of those guys looks better.

And I really believe that “history” begins in about 2 or 3 years.

Stoid

36

Quite frankly I’m annoyed with both of them. I am begining to think that the US should go to a run-off system that would eliminate some of this partisan bickering and allow for a viable third party candidate. I’m now thinking that big-bird would make a better President.

As for the Bush camp “allowing” Harris to do anything; I hardly think so. I think that there was, at the very least, a tacit agreement with her actions, but I believe that she is acting in her own self-intrest.

37

I still think that Harris just said she wouldn’t accept the handcount results. I don’t think she (Harris or her representative) ever tried to halt the handcounts.

Does anyone have a link to an order by Harris to actually STOP handcounting? Or just that she would not accept the handcounts?

Because this FSC decision does not say that Harris has to accept the handcounts, just that they can keep on counting while the real issue is decided.
FWIW…

Right now I will support whoever wins Florida after the absentee ballots come in. If either candidate tries to screw around after those results, I will never acknowledge them as the president if they manage to reverse a Saturday decision by Florida.

I consider manual re-counts to be full of potential for fraud and have ZERO support of them.

38

I think Carol Roberts needs her own thread as well.

She seems so amazingly partisan, I think her (somtimes alleged) behavior puts Harris’ to shame. There are allegations of tampering with ballots, poking at them, and other such things. This lady is ballsy. She certainly came off that way during the middle-of-the-night press conference last week.

Has anyone heard about the Republican lady who lost an election by about 12 or 13 votes, and when she requested a hand count, she was refused by Roberts and the board? The reason given was that hand counts are only given when the count difference is “in single digits”. This happened only a few months ago. If this precedent was already set, why did they change it for this election?

I cannot say much for Harris. I think it’s possible that she was just trying to follow the letter of the law, I don’t really know much about the details of her behavior. If she is being overzealous, it would make me uncomfortable.

39

I haven’t been ab;e to find a link to that order. Here is a link to a story about her petition to the Florida Supreme Court to stop teh handcounts.

The "order: by Harris for Palm Beach County to stop the recounts (which they had scheduled to begin at 7AM on 11-14) was a ruling in response to a letter of request from Palm Beach County. The text of the letter can be found here. After her ruling that the recounts could not be conducted, Bob Butterworth, the attorney-general and an active campaigner for Gore, issued a contrary ruling. The canvassing board then went to court to seek a clarification of the contradictory rulings, and they were told the count could procede. The Florida Supreme Court said basically the same thing in response to Harris’ petition.

yosemitebabe
If true, that storey is horrible. Can you post a link to the story?

40

Spiritus:

I will look for a link. I do know that the name of the Republican woman who lost by 11 (it was apparently 11) votes, (but was refused a hand count) is Beverly Green. I saw her interviewed on TV today.