A Brief Memo to Bush Supporters

Great Debates
1

Hi. Listen up.

If the positions were reversed, your man would be doing exactly the same thing.* The Gore campaign is taking perfectly ordinary steps in an extraordinary situation. Keep this in mind, please, when railing against the iniquities of the Democratic Party.

Thanks.
[sub]*With the caveat, of course, that since most Republican counties in Florida use SAT-syle opscan ballots, and most Democratic counties use punch ballots, the initial Republican count is going to be more accurate than the initial Democratic count regardless. This, by the way, is why Gore has gained so many votes relative to Bush in the Florida recount.[/sub]

2

Sounds good to me. I just don’t understand how Bush lost votes in PBC.

There’s a reason why these things shouldn’t be done by hand.

I don’t think the Democrats would like the Republicans going through the votes one by one to determine intent, and rightly so.

The more these ballots are handled, the greater the possibility of impropriety.

3

Couple points.

Manual recounts are more accurate; just ask your boy Bush and Texas House Bill 331.

Officials in Seminole County, which is overwhelmingly Republican, have already hand-counted ballots to determine intent; Bush picked up ninety votes. Do you have a problem with that?

As has been pointed out (multiple times), manual recounts–as provided for in the Florida constitution–are conducted in a public room with representatives of both parties present.

There is a legitimate need for manual recounts in punch ballot counties, as counting machines sometimes fail to recognize ballots in which the chit has not come entirely off.

Conversely, if one chit is punched halfway, and another in punched all the way through, the ballot will likely be classified as double-punched, and thus invalidated. So maybe the people in PBC weren’t so “stupid” as to vote twice, after all.

4

I have no problem with a hand count at this point. But I hope that once the vote in Florida is certified that the losing candidate concedes.

5

Gadarene:

I substantially agree, except with the idea of handcounts being more accurate. I think they can be, but I don’t like the potentials for abuse available.

Throw out Bush’s handcounts too, I have no problem with that.

Not that I’m gonna get my way, or anything :wink:

6

Please cite. Every news report I’ve read or seen says that Bush gained votes both in the recount and the hand count. Gore just happened to have gained more.

7

Saw one Yesterday on Yahoo news that said Bush lost 9 in PBC.

This one shows some losses for both:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Presidential_Results/election.html?s=politics/elections/US/pres_florida__all.html

I don’t understand how you lose votes.

8

So, Mr. Gadarene, that makes it OK?

Now Johnny, if all your friends jumped off the bridge …

9

I agree on the recounts, disagree on the legal actions currently rumored to be supported by the DNC. And if the legal actions are not supported by the DNC, the press owes a big apology to Al Gore because it is making him and the DNC look pretty bad.

Perhaps the Democrats should consider this in the future, maybe switch their ballots instead of continuing to set themselves up in case it’s a close race? This wasn’t the first time for this problem in the same county. Why hasn’t someone, like the Democrat responsible for the ballot, changed the form? I don’t think it is fair to let the States run their elections with no federal standards and then question the accuracy after the fact.

As to the existing State allowances for recounts, I think Bush is absolutely wrong to protest those counts. As to the lawsuits, I hope it comes out to be a media rumor, I sincerely hope that we don’t make a historic change from election by the people to election by the people who win in a State court decision. If the door is opened, it will never be shut again, ask any lawyer you know.

10

[Bart Simpson]
All my friends are jumping off the bridge? I’m there!!!
[/Bart Simpson]

Anyway, I didn’t say it made it okay, Unc–though I don’t think there’s anything particularly egregious about Gore’s requesting a manual recount in irregular counties*, or wanting to make sure that all the people who tried to vote for him had their voices heard, given the closeness of the election.

I happen to believe that my feelings about this matter would be the same if it were Bush who was behind in Florida. The Republicans wouldn’t be above such, uh, dastardly tactics in that position, either–nor, in my opinion, should they be. I just wanted to remind people of that fact.

[sub]*I mean, really, 9,888 votes for David McReynolds in Volusia County, the same place where Gore’s vote total reportedly went down by 10,000 on Election Night? Ah, it must be a Socialist stronghold… Has anyone gotten to the bottom of that yet?[/sub]

11

What do you think of the Florida Secratary of State anouncing that the deadline of Tuesday 5 PM will hold? Apparently the manual recount in PBC will take six days. (I’m unclear if a partial recount can add some votes for Gore, or if it is all or nothing. Any enlightenment would be appreciated).

The SoS is a Republican. So what do we think of this decision, partisan as it may be? It appears to be legal.

As for the OP, of course Gore is doing what Bush would (probably) do in the same circumstance. Who is blaming Gore? On the other hand, Bush is doing what Gore would do in this circumstance.

What is right and wrong has nothing to do with what Bush or Gore would do in this or that circumstance.

12

They are when dealing with marked, paper ballots. They aren’t when talking about computer-scanned punch ballots. More than 90 percent of Texas voting districts use marked, paper ballots. Fact.

Got that cleared up for ya? Let’s move on.

Officials in Seminole County hand-counted absentee ballots. Fact.

Got that cleared up for ya? Let’s move on.

As has been pointed out (multiple times), in the counties carefully chosen by the Gore campaign for recounts, the boards of canvassars making the decisions on disputed ballots are 2-to-1 Democrat. Not only is it wrongly partisan; it’s being decided by two partisan people. It’s my understanding that 2-to-1 votes are abounding on these disputed ballots.

Got that cleared up for ya? Let’s move on.

If one chad is punched halfway, and another punched all the way through, the person has wrongly voted twice for president, and their ballot should be (and always has been ) thrown out on that particular vote.

Until Gore et al came to town, that is.

Gee, you never cared before on any other election. And you don’t seem to care about those other people’s voices in America that “aren’t being heard” (i.e., who violated election law and had their ballots rightfully discounted). Just in four Democratic counties that will likely swing the vote to His Fraudulency, Al Gore. Hmmm …

Unlike the facts I have cited in this thread, this is your opinion. Your opinion and five dollars will get me a nice latte at Starbucks. (As mine will as well.)

It doesn’t “appear” legal. It is legal. And Florida election law offers no wiggle room at all. It says the vote counts must be complete within 7 days of the election, or the re-counted votes from missing counties shall be discarded; and the earlier certified vote count shall be made official.

The Gore campaign says it will attempt to appeal this. So much for wanting to follow the rule of law.

13

No previous Presidential election was this close (unless you think Gadarene was so concerned when Kennedy beat Nixon…?). This is my point: Mandatory re-counts are done ONLY when the election in question is close, when the margin of victory is less than the margin of error.

His Incompetency, G. W. Bush, was perfectly free to demand re-counts in any four counties of his choosing. Believe it or not, the disputed WINNER of an election is allowed to demand re-counts. The fact that no winner has ever done so before is irrelevant.

If Florida law allows appeals, then they ARE following the rule of law. How do you know that it forbids appeals in this case? And why should it?

14

I would have some questions about the constitutionality of the Tuesday deadline for election returns. (Both under the Florida and US Constitutions.) If the deadline is operating to thwart an accurate count of the ballots cast, then I think the statute imposing that deadline might be prone to constitutional attack. (To the extent that voters may be disenfranchised by an inaccurate count.) I haven’t read the statute itself; does anyone have a link?

The constitutional question might be a close call, though. If a Court rules the one-week deadline unconstitutional, then that opens up the question of how long a period of time would be constitutional. Obviously, there must be some deadline for finalizing the results of the election.

15

Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the election wouldn’t be so close if such extraordinary balloting scrutiny were conducted nationwide?

Have you seen that national election vote map by county? The number of counties that went to Bush outnumber the amount that went to Gore by 4-to-1.

Republicans don’t (and didn’t) object to a recount. The recount has been done. Bush won.

Republicans object to continued manipulation of the process until Gore wins.

And why would the winner do that, exactly? It will be very interesting to see if the Democrats, if they are successful using their four-county manipulation of the process in an attempt to swing this to Gore, will then cry foul if the Republicans request a hand-count in the Republican pan-handle of Florida, saying it’s too late. So much for “the public’s voice that must be heard.”

If Florida law allows appeals, I am not aware of it. And I would like to see such a citation.

16

The procedure for challenging the deadline would be to file suit seeking an injunction to prevent the Florida Secretary of State from certifying the results until the Palm Beach recount is completed. (Assuming the deadline is imposed by statute, you would have to argue that the deadline is unconstitutional. I haven’t seen the statute yet.) If the injunction is denied, then yes, you can appeal the decision. If the Secretary of State certifies the results in the interim, then you could file suit seeking to overturn that certification (again, on Constitutional grounds), and seeking to enjoin the electors from submitting their votes until the constitutionality of the deadline is resolved.

So yes, there are legal procedures available to challenge the deadline.

17

and you take this to mean what? I don’t believe that ANYONE else is comparing anything else except VOTES. numbers of VOTES. not # of counties. not squre acerage. VOTES.

carry on.

18

Milossarian, concerning the issue of punch ballots and Bush’s alleged hypocrisy because of Texas House Bill 331, I have seen you mention the following sentiment several times.

I’m not quite clear on that yet. Though I have seen the number that 14 of the approximate 254 Texas counties are the only ones that use the punch method, they are (of course) several of the most populated counties, just as in Florida. This site yields statistics for the top 10 counties in Nov. '98, showing the 1st, 6th, and 8th place counties using punch systems, plus the 2nd place county (Dallas) had only just switched to OpScan in '98. The 1st place county (Harris) alone accounted for well over 500,000 votes in '98. Surely you are not suggesting that Bush intended for the citizens of Harris county (and others) to be excluded from the hand count previsions of this bill?

Everything I have read has indicated that this type of ballot would still be invalid and thrown out. If you are implying that the Democrats are trying to change this, please provide a cite.

19

Except, of course, that with every public appearance, the Democrats seem intent on reminding us that they won the popular vote.

Oh, that’s right – they don’t count. Or can’t count. Or something like that… :wink:

20

anyway, got lots to read on this thread, and work that needs to be done (I actually have a life somewhere in this mess) but I did see something I wanted to respond to. And its actually a new response, a new thought!

I have not seen the paper ballots in Texas, but it seems to me that they are being described as pen-to-paper, and therefore ridiculously more clear and easy to “determine intent” than punch ballots. (Therefore Bush is not a hypocrite.)

Well, I dunno 'bout that.

Assuming, as I must since I haven’t seen them, that the ballots are something similar to a lottery slip, it seems to be just as subjective, if not MORE subjective, to decide if a slight pen mark on a spot counts as an intent to vote, than to decide if a punched out chad means an intent to vote. After all, with the chads it’s pretty straightforward: the chad is connected by four corners. If one, two, or three of those corners are detached, it’s a vote. No corners detached? It’s not a vote. How much simpler, straightforward, and unmistakable can it possibly get?

Pen to paper, on the other hand…setting aside the people who might actually write: “I meant to vote for Bush!” on the paper, all other markings would be pretty subjective. Of course, if someone draws arrows, crosses things out, then that might be easy to discern, but I’ve had lottery slips rejected because my pen touched an extra spot. I’ve seen people’s lotto slips where they barely marked the spots, others where they scribbled all over. People do it all kinds of ways. If the Texas ballots are anything like this, what is the objective standard used, comparable to the attached/detached corners of chads, that makes the Texas statute so much more logical/fairer/more reasonable than the standard used in Palm Beach?

We all know I’m biased in terms of who I want to win, but really…it seems really obvious to me that manual determination of whether a chad is punched is much more objective than trying to decide if a light pen mark is deliberate or accidental. After all, in order to punch, you have to stick it in a metal hole and press down. In order to make a mark with a pen, the pen merely has to brush the paper. I’ve made thousands of accidental pen marks in my life…I haven’t punched many accidental holes.

Anybody got any answers for this? (silly question)

stoid