My TKD instructor is also of the NEN school of self-defense. He emphasizes that of the several vulnerable points on a Human body, these three are the easiest to find in a fight.
My instructor also keeps drilling into us that in a self-defense situation, keep the kicks low and use simple techniques. At least, until the attacker is stunned. THEN use the higher kicks and throws to finish them off.
In a multiple-attacker situation, of course, the object is to slow enough of them down to the point where, as they said in a bad movie back in 1999, “Running would be a good idea!”
High kicks have just never made any sense to me. How often do you see a high kick land in a pro karate fight? TKD practitioners are practicing a stand up art and then they go and lift one of their “stands” high off the ground? Makes no sense. Controlling the distance isn’t an adequate reason for a high kick either. The training to make a high kick effective as an offensive tool and at the same time not opening oneself up to a defensive disaster is prohibitive. I’m with you - go for the sweep or the calf/shin. Save the high kicks for the movies.
Well, I’ll be checking out both the Hybrid Submission school as well as the Muay Thai. I’ll give more details about the instructors’ and the information they provide if it’ll help your suggestions any.
SoD:“cough Um, is that “layer of scar tissue” healthy? Well, obviously not, but would it seriously hinder my ability to live a reasonably long, healthy life?”
I’ve been studying kung fu for several years. From experience, you need to be very careful about arts/schools that involve a high degree of conditioning. Any full-contact art can be risky, whether it is Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, et al, over the long term. I would especially be cautious about Muay Thai becuase shin/knee/leg conditioning can potentially involve scar tissue buildup and nerve damage as a means of increasing the short term strength of your bone/joint. Long term effects of the training can be very risky however. I know several older martial artists afflicted with bad joints, pain, arthritis, from excessive or improper conditioning in their younger days.
Think of it as a long-time boxer getting “punch drunk”, or a pro-basketball player with permanent back problems or knee pain.
However, all of these arts listed can certainly be trained safely and conditioning done without damage, however it is critical to research and ask around about the conditioning methods that the school uses. Sports therapists or physical therapists would be excellent 2nd opinions to ask if you have any doubts whether or not your school asking you to kick a tree trunk 300 times per day is good for your shin
An instructor once told me “I am teaching you this now so that you can still use it when you’re 60”.
Well, I live in the home of the Mike Miles Kickboxing Extrodinarie school.
I’ve seen competitions. Suffice it to say that those Muay Thai fighters could kick pretty well anybodys ass, any time, without too much trouble. Yes, that includes the girl competitors.
That shit is hardcore. It will help if you’re youngish, rather than oldish because it is so intense; however, if you get yourself well versed in Muay Thai, you should be able to defend yourself without too much trouble at all.
FWIW, the pain conditioning is a big part I think. I’ve seen fights where both men were staggering around with blood and teeth hanging out of their heads (yes, really. Ick.) and yet they both continued to fight.
Now, hopefully you’ll never be in a situation where you have blood and teeth hanging out of your head, but I imagine it would be quite reasuring to know you could still kick ass if you did.
I’ll definitely ask about the conditioning techniques. Are there any specific things I should avoid? For example (I don’t even know if this is bad for me), if they say “We punch hard things a lot until it doesn’t hurt” I should be wary, or something like that.
Well, I believe (and in fact, in my old gym) some of the fellas “trained” by taking head shots.
That is, they put on gear (mouthpiece, head padding) and have someone else hit them in the head.
The idea, I suppose, is that you get used to it.
I feel it’s necessary to point out: people who had other uses for their brains lined up - students, professionals, the instructor, did NOT participate in this. It was strictly those that were aiming to be professional fighters.
If that was manditory, I think I would give the gym a pass, both because, apart from respect, nothing should be manditory, but also because it may be an indicator that the focus of the gym is fighting, rather than learning the practice from a self defense point of view.
One more question before my report of the school: Is cross-style training bad? In other words, would my training in either TKD or Muay Thai be hindered greatly if I did both?
Nichol_storm, I took Shotokan karate before taking Muay Thai. Don’t you worry about TKD-style kicks, they’re not really emphasized in Muay Thai. Muay Thai does have high roundhouse kicks, but they’re not used as much as TKD would. After all, fighters compete in five 3 minute rounds, and if that sounds short, try it sometime. Using all those flashy kicks is the equivalent of having “kick my ass” tattooed on your forehead, considering how quickly your stamina will be sapped.
However, be prepared to have an aching shin in the beginning. It took a little bit, but when I got the hang of the shin kick I realized just how much more powerful it was than the karate roundhouse, which hits with the instep or the ball of the foot. There’s nothing more satisfying than hearing the dull thump of a punching bag giving way to your shin and swinging wildly from the impact.
Also, the punching is different. It uses the moves of Western boxing – jab, hook, cross, uppercut – not the straight out punching of karate. If you’ve taken boxing before, then it’ll help you here.
The footwork is different too. It’s unlike Western boxing in this regard, since Mike Tyson never has to worry about taking a roundhouse to the hamstrings. But it’s not like karate’s fighter’s stance in sparring – the Muay Thai stance is a lot tighter.
I’ve already mentioned before how intense the conditioning is. If you know how to use a jump rope, you’ll have an advantage here. If, like me, you never played with those when you were little, then you’ll be rather embarrassed at first, then rather tired once you get the hang of skipping. Your calves and quads won’t know what hit them.
Nope, it might even be that some traditional teachers still do it. I wouldn’t be surprised. Hell, instead of gloves, Muay Thai fighters used to wrap rope around their fists, with ground-up glass glued to the rope. I also believe eye-gouging used to be legal before World War II. Definitely hard core stuff.
No, but I’ve only been training in it for half a year. My older brother has been in it for years, though, and he’s still as healthy as ever. Am I giving you the impression that Muay Thai is some kind of bloody free-for-all? It’s not, those hard core stories are from more than half a century ago. You do get injuries, of course, but I got injured in Shotokan karate too. That’s just part of the risks of martial arts.
By the way, Speaker, you didn’t mention what style of karate was being taught at that dojo in your city. That’s kind of important in this discussion, though I get the feeling you’re seriously considering Muay Thai now. If you’re interested, I’ve taken Shotokan, Goju, and Chito-Ryu karate, and I’ve found Shotokan to be most effective in its training.
And kickboxing is basically Muay Thai without the elbows and knees.
You are correct in your assumtion that I am seriously considering Muay Thai. I’m going to return to the dingy-looking school once it’s open on Monday.
And, in credit to my woeful ignorance of martial arts, I had no idea that Karate was broken into subgenres. Without calling the various schools (an impossibility on the weekend around here), I can’t find out what styles they are. One claims to be “traditional,” but that’s the only modifier I could find.
Well, best of luck on your training, then. Remember, Muay Thai fighters greet each other with a knee to the groin, as an acknowledgement of each other’s toughness. Do that to your instructor and he’ll be impressed at your level of cultural knowledge.
I believe the tree-kicking is/was done on banana plants rather than real wood. Also in the movie Tong Po was kicking a cement column causing it to shake (if memory serves - it’s been years since I saw it). That certainly was exaggerated; some things just aren’t possible… just imagine taking a cadaver’s leg and swinging it at rienforced concrete - it wouldn’t last long. I’ve also heard the broken glass and gouging, but I don’t really buy it as it doesn’t make sense or have real evidence to back it up.
Oh, the X-training. It’s best to X-train different styles rather than similar ones. Learning boxing at the same time as MT for example could get you confused and frustrated with stances and hand work when doing one then switching to the other. Same with wrestling and BJJ; similar arts with different approaches. Mixing different types of training is good though.
I went to Maurice Smith’s gym in Washington state a couple months ago before I moved, and saw Akira Shoji grappling on the ground while the ring was being used for traditional Muay Thai sparring. All it takes is to see the badassedness of the Muay Thai roundhouse and the complete difference from Taekwondo to see how effective it is. It’s less telegraphed in it’s nature, takes less effort to pull off, etc.
