Most people don’t realize just how fast modified and tuned normal cars can be. It might be hard to believe a 3L with more than 1000hp exists, but there are plenty similar cars.
For example, I drive a 1993 Eagle Talon. Here is a modified Talon that does the quarter mile in less than 8 seconds and finishes it at 180mph. It still has the same engine that my car has, which is just a tiny 2L. The internals are modified of course, but it’s still the same block and general engine. The trick to these kinds of figures is a turbo (boost) and high engine RPMs. Turbos can spin at 100,000 RPM or more.
People also have too much awe about nitrous systems. The above car would only run the 1/4 mile half a second or a second slower without nitrous (he actually did it, I just don’t remember the figure).
The main purpose of blow-off valves isn’t to allow the turbo to spool up faster after letting off the gas, but to prevent damaging it. When you let off the gas while the turbo is building boost, you slam the throttle body plate shut and all that air tries to go back through the turbo and make it spin backwards (it’s called compressor surge). That would be putting a lot of stress onto it. A blow off valve releaves the pressure in the intake piping and prevents that from happening.
Also, unlike someone mentioned earlier, the SAE horsepower figures quoted today for car specs don’t mean power to the wheels, just the flywheel. You usually lose 10-20% of that power by the time it gets to the wheels.
The UK TV show Top Gear had a shootout on their track between two really fast, race proven cars from the eighties: A BMW E30 M3 and a Lancia Delta Integrale, both delivering around 250bhp.
Both cars made worse lap times than the 150bhp Mitsubishi Colt CZT. :o
I want to complain about the original list. It does not contain theThunderbolt!
Yeah, low production, so it really should not qualify. But, you have to take into account, that with 60’s suspension and breaks, this was a VERY dangerous car to drive. All of the other manufacuters had low production cars like it that could reach into the 11’s in the 1/4 mile with nothing more than a tank of gas and a competent driver. These cars were sold by the dealers, with a warranty, so I think they are fair game. It may not be a stock Camaro, but it is a stock Yenko Camaro.
Plus, there is still miles of room for modification on them. Anyone who says there is not more power available with the large displacement v-8s vs the new free-flowing 4 cylynders is not thinking about the problem really hard. You can get 1500 horsepower out of a 426 once you have gone all the way to getting a supercharger (2000+ if you are willing to switch fuels and only drive a 1/4 mile at a time.) The greatest innovation done to engines since the 60’s is fuel injection and computer engine management. You can get both of these for the 426s. I would imagine that if something besides displacement and air flow was the critical factor behind the power created by the engine, then top fuel dragsters would use a smaller dispacement engine, but it is not the case. 4 valves make a high performance car MUCH more driveable, but I do not know of anything that flows more air than an aftermarket 426 head. That is, at least, anything that would still be installed in a car.
Rick, are you really doubting that people are making the horsepower they are claiming? Do you really not think that the 2JZ engines are capable of producing 1000+hp?
I know several people personally who have dynoed over 700hp in MKIV Supras. Those are corrected numbers, but they are also all at 6000 ft.
Keep in mind that many of these cars are dyno queens, but not all. Here’s Ryan Woon’s Supra, 1359 hp, 8.62@171. That’s on a .40 over bore, but there are many, many 700+ hp Supras on the stock block.
Hey let’s all spin the wheel of horsepower!
Wnat 900 at the rear wheels? No problem.
Want 905? scroll down.
Want 1065? We got that too.
Want 1359? Sure why not.
:dubious:
I never said it was flat impossible, I just have some serious doubts that some of these cars are doing it. going from 700 HP to 1000+ to 1300+ is not a case of changing the cams, and a new chip. There are some serious design issues. You have to get huge amounts of air into and out of the engine. This is not easy.
You will also note that in both the case of Mr. Woon’s car and the e bay car, the air intake is behind the radiator. In the real world (Not on a dyno, or with the hood open) this means the air going into the engine will be hot, very hot. This will decrease the amount of oxygen per cubic foot of air. That means you have even more air you have to injest to make the same horsepower.
There are very few people in the world that lie more than hot rodders when it comes to the performance of their cars.
Such comparisons are complicated, as you’re comparing two groups of vehicles, the criteria for which are murky. E.g, are today’s “tuner” cars like the Hennessey Viper included? What about the 1960s Yenko-modified cars? They were purchased through an official dealer and (I think) some came with a factory warranty. Yenko Chevrolet - Wikipedia
In some cases they weren’t really dealer-modified, just special ordered from the factory. In the 1960s if you knew the right ordering codes you could essentially order a street-legal race car direct from the factory. You can’t do that today. A lot of the 1960s muscle-car lore is from those “special” cars, not the average big-block passenger cars.
E.g, the famous Beach Boys song “Shut Down” mentions the “Super Stock Dodge”. This was a 413 “Max Wedge” engine Dodge that was special ordered from the factory. But it was essentially a factory production car (not a tuner car), and in proper tune and configuration could do a 12 second quarter mile.
Yet another complication for the 1960s cars is the tremendous variety of drivetrain options. For a given engine, some could be ordered with five different rear end ratios, plus multiple transmission options. Which one represents the car’s actual performance?
If we restrict the cars to those orderable direct from a factory dealer, not modified by a 3rd party, then some low-production 1960s muscle cars are still pretty competitive against today’s factory performance cars like the Chrysler SRT8.
Obviously today’s performance cars have much better handling and braking, and give much better gas mileage per unit performance.
Another point – for those who experienced them, the perception of a performance car is often measured against the backdrop of contemporary regular cars. E.g, you’re used to a certain performance level from average cars of the day, hop into a muscle car and your perception is based on that difference – “Wow this 1967 L88 Corvette is incredibly fast compared to my Rambler”.
Considering that, I suspect the average performance differential from regular 1960s passenger cars to 1960s muscle cars was greater than the differential from today’s passenger cars to today’s muscle cars. IOW today’s Nissan Altima V6 or Honda Accord V6 is pretty fast. You get used to that and even an SRT8 only seems “considerably” faster.
By contrast the bulk of 1960s passenger cars were pretty slow. By comparison a 1967 L88 Corvette is terrifyingly powerful. Maybe that accounts for the sometimes inflated perception of 1960s muscle cars.
I’d estimate that as a group modern muscle cars only recently regained performance parity with the fastest 1960s muscle cars. Yes the current C6 Z06 Corvette is very fast, but only three years ago the C5 Z06 was only about equal to the current base C6 in performance.
To add to this, here are NHRA Sport compact nationals vids (not sure how long these work)
11.6 from 1.3L: http://media.putfile.com/nhra4 (<– I’ver driven behind the guy in the right lane. My car is not slow, but his is Not Slow).
A couple of Supras. I think one of them might be Ryan’s on a bad run. If you look at the results, he runs anywhere from 9.something to a 12.something for his loss in the semifinals: http://media.putfile.com/nhra5
All of these are at 6000’ elevation.
I really am not sure about the skepticism from you, Rick. These cars are FAST, and don’t have giant block OHV engines.
I have a 71 Dodge Charger witha 63 Max Wedge 426 . Ran one of your Cobras the other day and left him. Not by much but enough to show who’s the boss. Guy told me he couldn’t believe how quick my car was. My car hooks up off the line with 3.90s out back and screams. Just a little tid bit on the older muscle cars.
Despite being an avid musclecar lover an owner, one has to be honest. There wasn’t one made that would come remotely close to competing (on any level) with the 2013 Shelby Mustang. Back in my day squeezing 1 HP per cubic inch was something. Next year’s Shelby Mustang is rated at 650 HP from about 350 cubic inches.
All that said, however, there’s still nothing like a big rumpity rumpity cam idling at 1200 RPM.
yours is hardly stock, so it’s not really an apt comparison. Not to mention that stock, your Charger came with worthless bias-ply tires and scary drum brakes all around.
Hell, even the current Mustang GT is a good example. In 1970, a 302 cubic inch V8 making over 400 hp would have not been driveable on the street. It probably would barely even idle (if it idled at all.) in 2011, 302 c.i. gets you >400 hp, a smooth idle, and a nice fat powerband.
To add another point, My first car in highschool was a 1967 Merc Cougar and it was hot rodded so not a valid example for this thread but stock with it’s largest avalible motor it’s 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are almost identical to my 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid.
I agree. This is not even a “foreign/domestic” thing.
This is me, trolling along at half power in a Honda Fit while even the cheapest cars (Kia, Hyundai) are blowing past me at 85 MPH. (Never mind Mustangs/Chargers/Camreros and I’m saying this as someone who is married to a current 2010 and 1964 1/2 Mustang owner.)
the downside of that is that spoiled us to the point that the average idiot will complain about a make of car if their 1990 whatever with 240,000 miles needs repairs often.
