I think you’ve probably lost the OP there Thow in the Mixolydian mode of the Harmonic Minor* and it’s all over.
Meeow! I think the scooped tone really developed as a rythym technique with all the palm-muted riffs those guys love. You need loads of gain for that to work and if you leave in the mids you lose all definition.
John Bonham only used one kick drum. But he did have a very fast right foot. Maybe a la Phil(thy) Animal Taylor?
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New Wave of the late 70s early 80s really just grouped together edgier pop bands with short hair and skinny ties like Elvis Costello, Squeeze, Talking Heads and bands with punky origins which actually played catchy mainsteam (but not manufatured) pop (typifed by Blondie). Some bands don’t fit, Buzzcocks and The Stranglers come to mind, their songs were a bit too melodic to be punk really, but they get labelled punk bands because they were in the game so early.
The Doors stylistically speaking would probably be too bluesy to count as New Wave. They were also a decade too early. On the other hand I have footage of The Damned playing LA Woman (rather well), dunno how to categorise that.
*If this has a proper name I don’t know and don’t care.
I admit, I’m not enough of a fan of heavy metal to argue with you over the distinctions, many of which (as I said) cross over anyway between genres.
I was confining myself to the difference in the actual notes being played, as well, rather than get caught up in trying to pin down that ineffable “sound” of particular styles of guitar or mic pickups or process effects or, well, the sound engineering bits. I suspect those bands didn’t say, “Gee, we can’t use that brand of guitar, we’re a heavy metal band. What will music historians say?”
For instance, Queen’s “Another One Bites the Dust” has some syncopation in the bass line, and some nice 7ths and 9ths in a backbeat guitar — is it disco? Erm… no, not really.
Don’t take this the wrong way - it’s started an interesting conversation, anyway - but why are you asking this at all? It seems you’re asking for techy answers that you readily acknowledge will be beyond your current comprehension level, then happily reveling in it when the answers are exactly that.
It reminds me of Jessica Simpson (as Daisy Duke) in those DirectTV (?) commercials going, “Ah don’t know whut any of that means, but ah wannit!”
(This whole post needs a huge smiley. I’m curious, not insulting you at all.)
I was also going to comment on your description of heavy metal, but decided not to at first, because you’re not really wrong. Wasn’t AC/DC considered heavy metal at some point in time? So, for very early non-Sabbath metal, and a lot of the 80s hair-metal, your points do hold true. Power chords and heavy reliance on I-IV-V is pretty common in these varieties of metal (which listeners today would probably term “hard rock.”)
When I think of metal, though, my first thoughts are to Sabbath, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, etc. To me, those brands of metal try to avoid the typical I-IV-V-type progressions. Chromatics changes (down or up a half) step are very popular. The tritone (augmented fourth/flatted fifth) is a popular interval for its discordant sound (it was called the “devil’s interval,” after all), a droning “E” string (or “D” if it’s drop-tuned), copious use of palm-muting, double kick drums, presence of a guitar solo (often modal rather than blues-based), etc… Not all bands embrace all of these, but I think that’s a pretty decent summary of what people nowadays expect to hear when you use the term “metal.”
Would it help if I recorded some audio samples and put them online? I have keyboards and stuff that I could use to record some sample notes and chords so you could hear a bit of what we’re talking about, if it would help.
In fact, with as many musical questions that get asked on the 'Dope, it’s long past time to have a little website with some sound samples on it… any other musical Dopers here want to help with that?
I kinda assumed that the “ineffable sound” was exactly what the OP was looking to understand about New Wave, i.e., “what recipe of instruments and sounds tend to produce a New Wave-sounding song” so that is what I was going for. If I got that wrong, sorry - but judging from **Bearflag’s ** initial response to my New Wave recipe post, I thought I was doing okay…
All kidding aside and absolutely no offense intended - but don’t kid yourself! They certainly don’t care about music historians, but there are HUGE - freakin’ MASSIVE, you hear me? - discussions about what IS and Isn’t “metal.” Metal is one of the most structured styles there is - just like punk. Bands strive to innovate within a clearly-defined set of rules - which means pushing boundaries - which means knowing EXACTLY where those boundaries are. If you hang out with metal musicians, you would hear endless debates about this. And guitar brand, model and overall look are essential elements of establishing metal cred - showing up to shred metal with a Fender Jazzmaster - the ultimate Indie guitar which distorts quite nicely, thank you - would be a recipe for a smack-down!
again, not to cause trouble, but Queen was abused mightily when that song came out precisely because rockers felt like they HAD sold out and done a disco song…as a rocker back in the day - one who loved the song but would never admit it! I offer my own personal high-school experiences as a cite!!
**Small Clanger **(dude! 'sup? ) Of course you’re right about Bonham. Sorry. As for the “meow” - well, dammit, it’s true! The amps used at the beginning of the Thrash years in the early 80’s were shit - period. Adding 'leventy-twelve fuzz boxes to the front of the signal chain didn’t help matters. So yes, of course you’re 100% correct - they cut the mids to help with the definition of their pick attack - but also to keep their rig from squealing out of control!!
Bearflag70 - sorry we lost you - you did ask for music scholars (i.e., geeks!), so glad at least that you find this somewhat entertaining. If you have other questions specific to your OP, just bring 'em on!
I didn’t really expect to actually understand the response I got, I just wanted to see what an analysis of new wave would look like, since I love new wave music.
See, this is exactly why I’m confining myself to the notes being played, not which instrument they were written for or how far the guitarist is standing from the speaker. That, at least, can be pinned down in a discussion. You can’t just play the same notes with a symphony orchestra and suddenly it’s classical music. Unquestionably it would have a different sound, but structurally it’s the same notes.
I’m glad you’re throwing in the specifics of the recording equipment, personally, because I’m no sound engineer — I’m a keyboardist, with only basic guitar knowledge, so when I want a particular sound I fumble around until I get it without bothering to wonder if it’s “metal enough.”
But that’s my point — that arbitrary labels for certain kinds of arrangements are certain to blur. There’s only twelve notes in Western music, fer cryin’ out loud, so I don’t see any point in segregating which kinds of musicians are allowed to use which ones.
Thow in the Mixolydian mode of the Harmonic Minor* and it’s all over.