Music theory ---> Major vs. Minor

Cafe Society
1

(It should be prefaced that this post is coming from a guitar-oriented standpoint)

All right… so let’s say you’ve got a rock song where the majority of the instrumentation is single note lines or 5 chords (power chords). How might we go about determining whether this song is in a minor or major key? I’d guess it would have to do with scales that work over it, but isn’t playing a minor pentatonic over a major key essentially “blues”? And the 5th pattern (Aeolian) tends to work over everything despite being the “natural minor” scale.

I recall something about how in a major key, for example, your I-IV-V chords are major and the rest are minor or something… but how can I figure out whether a 5 chord is major or minor?

Any help is appreciated!

2

For the guitar stuff, you’re going to have to wait for someone else to come along. I’m a vocalist, but I’ll help you out as much as I can.

Your V chord will almost always be major. Most songs use a harmonic minor key for V chords, which causes a major V chord. However, to determine if it is major or minor, figure out what the individual notes are, and see what the intervals between them are:

whole step - half step (M3-m3)= major
half step - whole step (m3-M3)= minor

Now, in a major key, the chords go something like this: I ii iii IV V vi vii … with the capitalized chords being major and the rest minor. It isn’t unusual at all for a song in a major key to use an occasional iii or vi chord.

Hope this helps!

3

Here’s the ticket:

When it comes to a lot of popular music, you really can’t pigeonhole the tonality all the time. It could be several different things at once. Or, in fact, indeterminate, if you’re using only power chords which don’t have the distinguishing third in them.

The best clue would be if a song stays generally in the same mode for most of the time.

4

Since this is a question about music, I’ll move it to Cafe Society.

Off to Cafe Society.

DrMatrix - GQ Moderator

5

Just pick out what you want here. . . .The guitar angle is a red herring, the question and answer apply to any instrument. It is more of a genre question since tonality in rock (e.g., power chords) is somewhat unique to the genre. (A power chord is the root and the 5th, sometimes topped by the octave. This interval gives a good crunch, but lacking the 3rd has no major or minor character.)

Ms. BellaVoce gave an excellent rundown, although the vii chord is a diminished (vii°) rather than a minor chord. I will add that you also consider the 7ths. The rundown of chords in the key of C, for example, are:

Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7(b5)

(On the vii chord, when you add the 7th, by convention it’s easier to think of it as a min7 chord with a flatted 5th, rather than a diminished chord with a minor 7th.)

Note a couple of things here. The C and F are MAJOR 7ths. The G is a DOMINANT 7th (normally just called a 7th chord).

Anyway, your question focuses on minor vs. major. The key of A minor (for example) has almost the same chords as the major key for C. The difference is that the B is flatted so that the V is still a V7, so that the V7 can resolve to the Amin. So it can be hard for a novice to determine whether a rock song is in C major or A minor, because you can play the same scales against the changes. This is mostly done by the earlier hints I gave and a lot of ear experience.

Anyway, if you look at the chord progression for your tune, there are a couple of things to look for to tip you off for the key.
[ul]
[li]Most (but not all) songs start on the I chord, and almost almost all end on the I chord. So check the beginning and the end. [/li][li]The V7 usually makes an appearance at the end of a phrase to set up to return to the I to start the next phrase. [/li][li]Most minor rock songs sound good if you play Dorian mode (for A minor, you’d be playing the notes from a G major scale). Carlos Santana is a master of Dorian mode.[/li][li]Most major ones sound good with a major pentatonic scale (for C major, play the A minor pentatonic scale). Lots of country rock uses major pentatonic (solo in Take It Easy).[/li][li]Just about anything in rock sounds good if you play a minor pentatonic scale, even if the song is in a major key. So that is of limited help.[/li][li]Some songs change the key during the song, so don’t assume that the song is always the same all the way through.[/li][/ul]
Off the top of my head, Oye Como Va could be played with power chords and ambiguous scales and could be mistaken for A major (but it’s A minor IMHO).

Here is a pretty good place for this type of question, though there might be someplace better. There’s a newsgroup for jazz guitar that’s quite active and very receptive to theory discusssion, even if not purely jazz, at rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz.

6

Just too simply add to this thread (I hope…) Forty-Six&Two’s OP is very correct! Except that it should be THREE chords instead of five! (I-IV-V, I-III-IV, I-V-VII (Rock-N-Roll, BabY!) Or just one chord!

Regarding guitar stuff…I think…a "minor pentatonic over a major key [IS}essentially “blues”? Guitar example… If you play an E7 chord, but make it a minor 7th chord, by using you’re pinky to play the 3rd fret of the B and High E string, you are essentially playing a “Major-Minor” chord. (Jimi was BIG on this chord…see “Killing Floor”) And VERY technically you’re playing an E min 7 but an Emaj min 7 chord. Exactly… E B D Gsharp D G

See the G and G sharp action, going on at the same time? THAT is the blues, Baby!!! Jimi, Robert Johnson, Leadbelly, Jimmy Page, on and on!

7

OK, some excellent general theory posted above. Can the OP give us a little more detail? Like, what songs would you like to know the key of?

To answer your question directly, the V chord is major if it has a major 3rd in it. G chord with a B for the third is major. D chord with an F for the third is minor. However the V chord does not control tonality 'cause lots of folks use a major V in a minor key, especially when changing to a different tonality.

Aeolian (natural minor) is based on the 6th note of the major scale, by the way, not the 5th (that’s Mixolydian).

8

My two cents on top: the power chord works so well because the harmonics don’t clash. This is almost strictly a guitar thing: it’s only relevant because when you play with enough distortion, the harmonics of the 3rd (major or minor) clash with the 1st and 5th.

With a clean enough sound, it’s not an issue.

9

NoCoolUserName- I’m trying to determine the key of one of my band’s original songs so I can take it apart and figure out how best to solo over it. I’m not a big fan of the whole “grip it and rip it with box patterns and hope it works” approach :slight_smile:

These posts have actually helped a lot… CookingWithGas said

…and I think this is basically where my problem is lying. But you also said that minor rock will sound good with Dorian, which doesn’t seem to work over the riff I’m chewing on… except if I nab that one note quickly, like a triplet run down the scale. Aeolian seems to feel better in general over the pattern. Now, if my riff is in G, does this mean I could actually be in E minor?

10

Yes, E is the relative minor of G. Depending on the other chords, if any, that will be happening during the solo, you may need to adjust (for example, it’s quite common in rock songs to be playing an F just before you come back to the G–in that case, you don’t want E minor 'cause that has an F# in it).

On the other hand, if the G is a “power chord” and there’s a Bb power chord during the changes, you want to be in G minor (aeolian) which is the same as Bb major.

11

Lots of great info, here.

I’m going to suggest something very simplistic–probably overly so, but you might want to try it, Forty-Six&Two.

When you play your song, what’s the first chord? And what’s the last one? The one you play that, when you play it, you say to yourself, “This song now feels like it’s over.” That last chord, the one that seems like the “end” of your song, is most likely the tonic, the I chord, and hence your key.

Please note, this does not always apply–for instance, if the ending is deliberatly ambiguous, or if you’re working with a mode and not a key, or whatever more complicated situation might exist. But by and large, on the average, a song ends on its tonic. If it doesn’t, you often feel like it ought to go somewhere else before it’s really over.

Just a thought.

12

I should have added–if you play E minor ( or even E major, or an open fifth with E at the root) and it feels “done” then you’re in the minor–it’s not uncommon to end a minor song with a major chord, or an open fifth. On the other hand, if G makes the song feel “over” you’re likely dealing with G major. (I forgot to address the major/minor thing).

13

Bren_Cameron - Right, I’ve always intuitively been able to sense the “home” tonic. Problem is, the home tonic feels like a G5 power chord. It sounds wrong with a minor or major third in there.

Let me see if I can explain some more details, NoCoolUserName, since at some points there’s both a Bb and an F going on during the solo.

During the solo, the bass part moves up… I guess it’s a perfect fourth, and it doubles the riff it was doing, except in C now. At this point in my solo, I’m moving back down the neck to an 8th fret (6-string) root and playing a C minor pentatonic which sounds fine. But when the riff’s happening in G (we’re assuming) I can’t really find a good scale/mode/whatever to play through. It might be mental, since the song’s attributes are still somewhat eluding me.

Some of the notes during the single note lines of the main riff include G, Bb, C, and C#. This is beginning to sound like G minor since you mentioned the Bb earlier as a minor indicator. Am I getting closer?

14

Maybe an F minor (Aeolian) scale would work (F, G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F). On the other hand, maybe it’s a set of changes that no one scale will work over and that might be why you’re having trouble.

I had a set of changes once that I liked and played them for my harmony teacher and asked the same question: What scale is this? His answer: Nothing I know about, maybe it’s some eastern thing.

Then there’s the intro to “You Are the Sunshine of My Life” by Stevie Wonder which is a whole-tone scale (only 7 notes, each 2 half-steps apart: C, D, E, F#, G#, Bb, C) and you’ve just gotta know that or you aren’t going to get anywhere.

If the bass player is playing the same thing in C that he plays in G, but you can solo over the C section (at the 8th fret) and not over the G section (at the 3rd or 15th fret), hmmm…sounds like a personal problem to me! They can probably help you with therapy and drugs?

So, send me a MIDI file with the changes that are making so much trouble for ya, and I’ll see what it sounds like and tell you where you need to be :slight_smile:

If the third sounds wrong in the G5, then stay off that puppy! [Doctor, it hurts when I do this…]

15

I think I’m just insane, you’re right. What’s sounding weird to me was an awkward transition I was making from a C section (haha) to a G section but that was a player error, not a theory one.

I’ve decided I’m almost definitely in G minor. But one question… what constitues G Aeolian, for example… it isn’t just a flat 3 and 5 right? I know there’s more to it… like, I’m pretty sure Harmonic Minor is just flatting the 7th of the natural minor, but how do we arrive at natural minor in the first place?

16

I’m a big believer in theory as an aide in songwriting and improvisation, but I must always remind myself that it is an attempt at an explanation for why certain things sound good.

Others make the same point that many songs (most?) aren’t set to one key. Songs modulate at key points; maybe every chord change is a key change, and a key can even change mid-chord (as the non-chord tones influence the listener’s ear.)

Looking at the song as a whole might help you figure out what to play, but you may want to break it down and just isolate the part, or look at another part you want to mirror, or just change the chords to fit what you want to play.

And playing what sounds good without knowing the theory behind it is certainly not a cop-out. Just do what feels right.

I’d like to hear more about the song (perhaps more chords, or a recording of the song itself) and try to figure out what key or other set of notes would sound good.

17

HoldenCaulfield - Agreed, of course. Getting too heady with any art form simply distracts from the original intent. Then again I want to make sure I’m not cheating myself out of getting the coolest rock solo I can.

Y’know, my band’s in the process of recording our second demo/EP right now, and when the rhythm tracks for this bad boy are done I’ll gladly post a link before any solos are final! Of course I’ll have to give SDMB credit in the liner notes :wink:

18

The whole “scales over chords” concept is a bad approach to guitar. The idea behind it is to use the scale that has the most incidences of chord tones so that there is a greater likelihood that by chance your fingers will land on chord tones on the downbeats. At least that is how too many people use the concept. A major or minor third can’t sound dissonant to a first and a fifth, it can only sound resolved or unresolved in the context of the chords around it. If it sounds unresolved it’s probably because your G5 has been tonicized by a secondary dominant and what you believe to be a major or minor third is really a dominant of a different key. You mentioned that you had an intuitive sense for the tonal center of a song - is this the first time you sat down and decided to analyze the key of a song to determine what to play over it? The reason I ask is that the only songs I know of that fit the pretty picture of “key” are the ones used to illustrate the concept.

19

I want to comment on this because I didn’t see your last post before writing mine.

There isn’t a single thing you can come up with by noodling with a “correct scale” that can’t be achieved by scatting over a recording of the song your attempting to solo over. Here’s my advice:

  1. Get a recording of the song you want to create a solo for.

  2. Go to a place where no one can hear you and bring something to play your sololess song on, something to record your voice on, and a bottle of wine.

  3. Close your eyes, listen to the WHOLE song a few times, then start scatting into a tape recorder where your solo will be.

  4. Have a glass of wine

  5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until your done with the bottle of wine.

  6. Substitute “glass” with “hit” and “wine” with “weed” and repeat steps 4 and 5 till your out of weed.

  7. Listen to recordings of scat when your sober and you’ll have a ton of ideas.

Disclaimer: Step 6 should only be performed in Amsterdam.

20

:smiley:

This could be the road I was missing all along! I will definitely try it! In Amsterdam. Ahem.

Agreed about the unresolved vs. resolved sound of the third. It’s basically my technical ignorance speaking earlier.