Must people allow others to break the law?

Great Debates
1

You’re walking into a store and some prick walks in behind you and says, “get out of my way, I’m going to steal something here!”

Would you move out of his way? I bet many of you would walk a little slower to stay in his way. Why would you move so this jerk can break the law?

But everyday on the highway, I see this: people driving the speed limit and others behind them blowing their horn & flashing their lights, giving dirty looks and flipping the finger!

If the speed limit is 65, and you’re driving 65, why are you almost obligated to move over so the guy behind you can break the law?
And should you be? As long as you are driving at the maximum speed allowed by law, why should you be forced to move over or speed up so another guy can break that law?

Or is it supposed to be common courtesy to step aside while others do illegal acts? What say you?

2

Because your job is not enforcement.

Because you don’t know why the person is speeding. Maybe he’s rushing his kid to the ER because of an asthma attack. Maybe he’s a doctor called in for emergency surgery. Probably not in most cases, but it happens daily around the country.

Because if you’re smart, you won’t trigger a case of road rage, and get run off the road, or shot.

Because the law also says “slower traffic keep right. The left lane is for passing”.

Need more reasons?

3

Hayduke’s question does raise a bit of an ethical issue though.

If me pulling to the side allowed a speeding driver to pass, and in the process he loses control of the car and crashes (and dies), am I in some way partially responsible for his death? If I had not pulled over, he would not have been able to speed, therefore I have *facilitated[/] his accident by providing the necessary conditions for it to occur.

Now don’t try this at home (or on the freeway) kiddies, this is purely a hypothetical.

However, it is interesting to ponder the implications! Hmmmm.

4

That ‘facilitated’ was meant to be in italics.
Don’t mind me.

5

I did something similar to this one day. I was moving through the ticket gates at Central station (Sydney) and the person behind me was nudging me in the back, trying to get me to hurry. Obviously they had no ticket, and were trying to get through the gate when it opened for me, and get out of paying for their ticket.

I slowed, and made sure that the gate closed directly behind me. The person proceeded to force their way through the gate and started pushing me and yelling at me. When I told the person to get lost, the person started punching me in the face and shoulder. The ticket officers watched the whole thing and did nothing.

That is one good reason to let the person through. If they aren’t the sort of person who would be shamed into doing the right thing, I’ve found it’s best to get out of their way. I pay taxes for police enforcement, and it’s their job to deal with this sort of thing. (the fact that they don’t get paid enough, either is another debate)

The law actually states (at least here it does) that you should keep to the left unless overtaking. In other words, if you aren’t overtaking someone, but are sitting out in the fast lane, it’s YOU that is breaking the law, not the person behind you. (though if you move he may break the law by speeding past you… not your call to make, IMO) Mind you, I do think the rude person behind you has issues with courtesy if they can’t drive politely, but that doesn’t excuse you from originally breaking the law in the first place.

**Kambuckta, ** I have a lovely warm fuzzy feeling that you are so concerned for my safety that you feel you are justified in sitting out in the overtaking lane. NOT. You are justifying breaking the law, because I might have an accident and you might feel partially responsible. Obey the law, move over if you’re not overtaking and don’t take it upon yourself to ‘save’ me. If I get pulled over for speeding, or kill myself in an accident, you aren’t responsible for it.

Sorry if that came out a little strong, but as someone who does a lot of freeway driving, I get frustrated by people who miss all those huge signs everywhere, stating “Keep left unless overtaking”… I feel like paying someone to make up a flashing neon one, just for me, that I can hold out the window at people !

I honestly can’t stand well-meaning people who want to enforce their opinions onto others. I don’t think there is any discernible difference in outcome or chance of having an accident if I was travelling at 110km (the speed limit) or if I’m cruising at 115km. Please note that I’m talking about freeway driving. If somebody is speeding and gets stuck behind me as I’m passing a school, suburbia, etc… it’s tough, because there is only one lane. When there is multiple lanes, the law states that you must keep to the left.

->This has been a public service announcement, sponsored by the Central Coast commuters :slight_smile:

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan *
Because your job is not enforcement.

And this means I absolutely MUST pull aside while someone else insist on going 100? What your saying is, if someone is breaking the law, I have to get out of the way and let them do it? Does this count for all violations? What if I see a mugging? oops. I’m not a cop, just let them do it?

**Because you don’t know why the person is speeding. Maybe he’s rushing his kid to the ER because of an asthma attack. **

So call a fucking ambulance! The only justification for speeding is an emergency vehicle with lights & siren on!
Because the law also says “slower traffic keep right. The left lane is for passing”.

Not in this state it doesn’t! Wisconsin allows for normal driving in the left lane. As long as a driver isn’t going below the minimum speed, he can stay there.

7

Goo, while my question was posed in terms of a road-rule (and one which I heartily endorse btw…nothing pisses me off more than drivers cruising in the RH lane) it was meant hypothetically, and could equally have been applied to another situation.

For example, your episode with the scum-bag at Central could have been used to illustrate the same principal. If you HAD moved aside to let him through, could you have been seen to be ‘complicit’ in his actions (to evade paying a ticket)?

Basically, if I decide not to PREVENT someone doing something stupid/illegal/dangerous (that I, at least in theory, am in a position to prevent), am I then in some way ‘participating’ in their craziness?

Now PLEASE remember this is a purely philosophical enquiry, and IT IS A QUESTION, not a statement of my beliefs!!

8

First, save the obscenities for the pit. They are not appropriate for GD.

Secondly, now you presume to have better medical judgement than the person speeding with a sick child? Please! If the kid’s in status asthmaticus, they need an ER, not a 10 minute wait for paramedics, and another 10 minute wait to get to the hospital. And even if their judgement is in error, you are compounding the error, not helping to rectify it.

Thirdly, you have yet to address these points I raised.

And what will you do if you’re in most other states, where it is illegal to to fail to yield?

9

Same thing as I do here, bubba. Nothing. I don’t drive. I only turned 16 last summer and my 'rents haven’t let me get my license yet. My observations are all made purely as a passenger.:smiley:

10

hehehe, O.k, Kambuckta, I’m off my soapbox re: the keeping left if not overtaking thing. Sorry about that -> check your e-mail.

As far as your hypothetical goes… I’m not sure if there is a hard and fast answer to this, though it is interesting to think about.

I remember hearing about that girl who was raped by a guy (another stood guard with a knife, I think) on a fairly busy train. I couldn’t believe nobody did anything ! How could they live with themselves. It would only take a couple of people to overwhelm the one with the knife, and she wouldn’t have been raped at all, let alone so publically. I believe everybody in that particular carriage is partly responsible, not for the crime but for not intervening.

Then again, nobody should feel obligated to put themselves at risk for another. I also don’t think it’s up to you (the individual, not you personally, Kambuckta) to enforce every teensy last little law. And there are some situations where you are better off steering clear, for your own safety. And there are some law that I do break, and that is between me, whoever I harm, and the law, not any old passerby.

Is it illegal to not give CPR to somebody who needs it if you know how to do it ? I would hazard an opinion that it is unethical not to (unless doing so puts you under extreme danger).

I’d like to see other’s opinions on this because I think it’s a topic worthy of discussion. I can’t decide where I am on this yet.

11

While I agree with every point made by Qadgop, let me take a different tact: victimless crimes.

When someone says that they WILL steal from a store, that directly hurts the shopkeeper. Now, you are not obligated to do anything about it, but you know that not doing anything will lead to someone getting financially hurt.
But what about speeding? Who does that hurt? Well, one could argue that it hurts whoever that person crashes into, but there’s no reason to believe that it will happen. There’s no way of knowing if the person you let pass you will get into an accident. Further, you are NOT responsible for what happens to that person after he’s passed you. It is not your job to babysit the world.
Speeding is against the law, but speeding in and of itself doesn’t harm anyone.

Finally, let’s go back to that person in the store. Let’s say he doesn’t announce he’s going to steal something because he isn’t the world’s stupidest crook. No, he’s just trying to reach for some beer and you’re blocking him. But wait! He’s only 19! He’s trying to break the law. Maybe you should get in the way there as well, lest he try to do something illegal under your watchful eye.

12

** Hayduke Lives!! **, if you don’t want to get out of the way out for some moral or legal reason, how about common sense?

I drive at the speed limit, 65 and rarely faster. Most vehicles pass me, and that’s fine. Once in a while I pass a slower vehicle, on the left if I can, on the right if I must. And I stay in the right lane except when I’m passing.

Why? Because hangin out in the left lane makes me a better target for every yahoo behind a steering wheel! It’s just a sensible defensive driving tactic. If I am in the left lane (doing 65) and passing someone in the right, and someone else comes up on ME from behind, I do NOT speed up to complete the pass sooner. But I do complete the pass and move back to the right.

Unless you’re in some dangerous career, driving is the most dangerous thing you do routinely, by FAR. So you protect yourself as best you can.

And if you express these confrontational opinions to your parents, I’m not at all surprised they won’t let you have a license. IMO it’s pretty stupid to be so contemptuous of driving conventions before you’ve ever driven. The conventions allow people who follow them to better predict the actions of other drivers, and they help identify potentially dangerous drivers (those who don’t follow the conventions) to the rest of us. It is to YOUR advantage to drive predictably, whether near other safe drivers or idiots on a cruise.

By the way, I live in Wisconsin too. The highways are sprinkled with “Slower Traffic Keep Right”, not “Vehicles Under 65 Keep Right”. Haven’t you noticed?

13

Whether it is the law or not road etiquette dictates that slower traffic keeps to the right. I hope you don’t complain when these people pass you on the right.

Marc

14

I see. Then I will hold the opinions of a non-driver concerning how to drive in the same esteem that I hold the opinions of the catholic pope about sexual activities.

15

Yes, but “slower drivers” refers to those driving UNDER the speed limit.Also, the law here does not dictate “passing only” in the left lane.

But let’s get out of the left lane for a minute. What if it’s a 3 lane freeway, speed limit 65, you’re going 65, but you are in the middle lane and some jackass behind you is flashing his lights.
Are you obligated to move over then? Now you’re not in the “passing lane”. You’re in the middle lane. Should you have to move so this guy can speed? What if you’re in the far right lane and he’s tailgating? Do you have to move then?

My arguement is, at very least in the middle or right lane, the front driver shouldn’t have to yield to the speeder. But having someone behind you flashing their lights and blowing their horn is still nerve wrecking.

16

You betcha. That’s why, when it happens to me, my priority is to put as much distance as possible between him and me. The safest way for me to do this is to remove myself from his path, and let the differences in our velocities take care of the rest.

This putative guy behind me is already putting ME in harm’s way. Getting out of harm’s way should be my first concern.

17

Ex EMT checks in.

Both Qadgop and Hayduke have points here.

I have seen people die who would have made it if someone tossed them in a car and drove the speed limit to an ER 3/4 of a mile away. OTOH if you need to go more than a few miles to a hospital especially in a big city, leave the heroics to the pros. Ambulance crews have a TON more practice driving knowing somones life is hanging in the balance. Also many ambulances will not actually be exceeding posted speed limits by much if at all in transport. Doing so would often be more injurous (sp?) or traumatic to the patient due to the rough ride. Granted the above mention asthma attack would benefit greatly from short transport, paramedics (at least here) do carry several drugs useful for breaking asthma attacks.

Nobody is ever going to get me to swallow this one in any seriously developed area, sorry doctor. Although having experienced surgeons on hand is a wonderful thing, good ER docs can handle most of what you can throw at them more than long enough for the surgeons to get in and get ready. Racing to the hospital is NEVER a good idea and you are probably just as likely to get in an accident as save someone in the 3 minutes you saved by risking your life and everyone elses on the road.
Getting in an accident trying to shave a few seconds off of the trip violates EMS law #1 * be part of the solution, not part of the problem*. In my two years working in the biz in a city of 750,000 I think I saw 3 times that a patient bypassed ER and went straight to surgery. All three were major trauma patients and it was at a “regional trauma center” in a city of that usually had a surgeon or two as part of the ER doc staff 24 hours a day.

18

Hayduke Lives!!, your last argument really does not hold water. I’ve never seen it happen and unlike some I’ve been driving for 47 years in most states of this country and in about 4 foreign countries. In fact when I saw this thread I immediately thought of being in Italy, last December.

Driving in Italy is fairly easy and there are only two things that are quite different. One is in downtown congestion, you have to get the feel for what’s happening and a little praying might help.

The other is exactly what this thread is about. If you are in the left lane in Italy, you had better be going faster than the car behind you. It doesn’t matter if you are halfway around someone, because if the car behind is going faster than you, he will blow his horn and blink his lights. At first it was rather unnerving, but then I started watching out for them and soon everything was fine. There is no passing on the right, because the right lane is filled with cars going slower than you are. I was there for a week and finally on the last day, I achieved my goal. By speeding up just a bit, I was able to blow my horn at the car in front of me.

Upon arrival back in the states, I have become even more unhappy with the people that get in the left lane and stay there. Especially bothersome are the ones that are going the same speed as someone in the right lane, making it impossible to pass them. These are the dangerous drivers, not the ones that go 5 miles over the speed limit (which 99.9% of the time will not get you a ticket).

19

Enderw24 wrote:

The same could be said for drunk driving, leaving your headlights turned off at night, passing on the shoulder, or driving with a blindfold on.

In and of themselves, these activities don’t harm anyone.

20

I’ll remember that next time a cop is riding my ass :wink: And I usually drive 80!

You know what is interesting, when I am stuck behind some guy on a four lane highway, all the way over in the fast lane of a four-lane highway, doing 5MPH over the speedlimit, I can just picture him thinking smugly to himself that I shouldn’t be speeding anyway.

Now my suspicions are confirmed!!! :mad: