Must We Quarter Soldiers?

Quite so, but not what I meant : AFAIK, the National Guard is funded, and equipped, entirely by the state, trained by the state etc…

That’s not what was originally needed, and envisioned, by the second amendment, which is to say let individuals buy their own guns because the State couldn’t afford a big standing army, nor could said standing army be everywhere at once and protect every two bit village and farm from other colonials, indian tribes or run-of-the-mill brigands.

IOW, the emphasis of my question was “bringing their own Glocks”, rather than the need for a local state military, which I do not dispute. I’m sure you can agree that, were individual citizen’s rights to keep and arm bears repealed, the Nat. Guard would still exist in pretty much the same form as it does now, as it does in other Western nations where citizen don’t have the same rights.

(Because we think bears are scary enough without guns)

And the valiant citizen keep 'em at bay with their Remingtons, I presume ? :stuck_out_tongue:

I disagree. Remember, there are two parts to the Amendment…one is talking about militia (which was in fact formed and funded by individual states in most cases, or formed by individual towns, and might or might not rely on each member to bring their own weapons), and part is simply talking about giving citizens the right to keep and bear arms (something that most citizens already had, but that was distinctively different than the norm back in Europe at the time…or at least in Western Europe and GB).

Certainly states didn’t have big armies, nor did the nascent US (though it turned out that the most effective troops were the regular Continental army troops or the better formed and trained state militias…most of the irregular militia units were next to worthless going up against a professional force like the Brits). I think that this is two separate things, though given the attacks by anti-gun groups on the 2nd, the pro-gun folks have sort of blended them together, to try and justify their right in terms of protecting and defending the US against…well, our own government I suppose. The reality was that the FF’s wanted to ensure that ordinary citizens would always have the right to keep their individual weapons, and they probably did buy into this as at least a quasi-check on the government, to ensure that it wouldn’t get out of hand or become oppressive (something they really did worry about, and probably with good reason, given what they had just gone through, and what was happening in France).

Certainly. And, even had the early US government taken away the right (or reality) of individual citizens having their own weapons, militia forces would still have been armed even then, since most of the better formed militias drew standard weapons from a common armory, instead of bringing along the ole rifle from over the fire place. Just think about the logistics of trying to supply everyone who brought in their own weapon and you can see that, if it comes down to combat, you’d only have whatever ammo a person carried with them for any engagement, which probably wouldn’t be a good thing.

That’s where the ‘well regulated’ part of the Amendment comes into play, I believe, since part of being ‘well regulated’ means being armed and supplied (as well as being under military regulation, order, command, etc).

How scary are they sans bracchium though? (Hope that’s right…my Latin is a bit rusty)

AR-15’s would be my guess. :wink:

-XT

If soldiers come to my door armed and demand quartering, I’m not going to die trying to stop them just because of some clause. I’ll sue for reimbursement later.

There is a relevant instance which seems to me to apply. Consider a charitable housing operation, devoted to providing decent affordable housing to low-income persons. Under the statutes of most jurisdictions, such an operation may not turn away soldiers, even though they may be able to afford something at a higher rental, and the effect of military personnel stationed nearby may have driven up housing costs. I suspect you might make a case that the Third Amendment grants such an operation the right not to rent to soldiers in pursuit of its charitable mission, on the theory that “quartering” mandated by law does not cease being quartering simply because a consideration is offered.

Applying the meaning of the principles of the Constitution to today’s world is hardly the same as “ignoring” it. :rolleyes:

IANAL. Have there ever been any test cases for the 3rd amendment? Anything from the US Civil War perhaps? Perhaps one of the “minor” rebellions or skirmishes over whiskey, taxes, or unionism where troops were mobilized and deployed within the country?

No, not since 1903. The job was completed in 1916.

I’m always impressed by the number of people who think “Red Dawn” was a documentary.

Yes. Binding precedent in New York, New Jersey, and IIRC Connecticut: Engblom v. Carey

All the Third makes me wonder about is what the hell the Redcoats could have done that would piss off everyone so much.

In the case of the 2nd, it’s an obvious attempt to circumvent the original intent of the creators of the Amendment by reinterpretation. So no…it’s not ‘ignoring’ it, it’s worse, really, at least from the perspective of those who cherish their right to keep and bear arms. Obviously MMV, depending on where one stands on this issue, and it’s fairly easy for someone (such as yourself) who feels the Amendment is outmoded, barbaric or whatever, to hand wave away the feelings of people who don’t feel the same about this issue.

Of course, if it really WAS outmoded and out of step with today’s world, then the right and proper thing to do would be to amend the Amendment, or even get rid of it completely, since the system was set up to allow for both (and there are precedence for both as well). It is sort of telling that these methods are not being used, and instead this tactic of, as you put it ‘Applying the meaning of the principles of the Constitution to today’s world’ (i.e. reinterpretation in order to circumvent or modify the original intent).

I really have no major issues with changing, modifying or even getting rid of the 2nd, if that truly is the will of the people. I don’t own a gun myself anymore, and have no intention of getting one in the future. What gets my back up is the sneaking way the anti-gun types have used to try and do an end around on this issue…and the fact that, as seems obvious by their methods, they KNOW that this isn’t the real will of the majority of people in this country, yet they use these methods anyway. I see this as a slippery slope that not only circumvents the original intent of the Amendment, but also the process we have in place for change AND the will of the people, all because some people think they know what’s best.

-XT

“Obvious”? :dubious: Hardly.

No need to put that in the subjunctive.

And not the cold-dead-fingers types attempts to pretend the first half of the amendment doesn’t even exist? That doesn’t bother you? Why would they, if the meaning is so “obvious”?

You know that shit doesn’t work here.

Ironically, I feel the same way about your lame ass reply. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

Interestingly, this seems to have been the ONLY case to make it to the U.S. Court of Appeals to involve the 3rd Amendment, and it didn’t happen until 1982. Not only that, but it involved a labor dispute in which prison guards were being replaced by the National Guard – not troops during wartime, as might have been expected.

I think we agree on the principle here, but I disagree with your opinion on interpretation. IMO, textually what can be presumed is, an unabridgeable right to keep and bear arms is being conferred, and the purpose of that right, as it was written, was to ensure the existence of a well-regulated militia. Whether that right confers an individual right, as the rest of the nine rights-guaranteeing First Congress amendments do, or a right as against the Federal government conditioned on the states’ powers to regulate firearms and edged-weapons ownership, is of necessity a matter of interpretation. You cannot say that it was or was not intended to establish the individual right, since the Bill of Rights governed what the Federal government might not do, and individual state constitutions were thought to guarantee rights as against the states, the situation in law until 1867 and in practice for thirty years thereafter. The question simply did not arise – it was as foreign to their thinking as whether there is a right to view and post pronography on the Internet would have been.

He who says, “My interpretation is the only correct one,” is in error, regardless of whether his interpretation is in fact correct. Unless he happens to be writing a majority opinion for SCOTUS at the time, of course.

The only modern equivalent I could possible see for the 3rd Amendment would be where the goverment wants to take over your property and put FBI agents up in your house because of a state of seige with your neighbors, such as a Ruby Ridge type of situation.

Or maybe if they tried to take over a local hotel and then refused to pay for the rooms.

Pretty much the only case to directly raise a Third Amendment issue was Engblom v. Carey. New York state prison guards went on strike in 1979. National Guardsmen were brought in to run the prisons.

The guardsmen needed a place to stay when they were not inside working. Some prisons have employee housing. In some of these places, the employees were evicted from their residences so they could be used by the guardsmen.

Two of the evicted guards at Mid-Orange Correctional Facilitiy, named Marianne Engblom and Charles Palmer, subsequently sued New York state (represented by then Governor Hugh Carey) for violating their Third Amendment rights.

Heh. If you’d asked me to guess when the 3rd Amendment was tested in court, “1982” would not have been my reply.

In what sense is the National Guard a militia? Nowadays, there’s no difference between the National Guard and the regular federal standing military.

But to get back to the OP, the only sense in which the Third Amendment is irrelevant is that everybody’s been following it. As law goes, it’s been working really well: The Constitution says that the US can’t force people to quarter soldiers, and the US hasn’t tried to force people to quarter soldiers. The purpose of the Second Amendment, however, is less clear, and it’s therefore harder to judge whether it’s accomplishing its purpose.

If memory serves, there were one or two marijuana cases back in the 60s or 70s in which the defendant cited the Third as well as many other amendments as creating a penumbra underwhich they could legally smoke pot. This was clearly riffing on Griswold, the case that found a right to privacy in the penumbras and emanations of the Bill of Rights. They were not successful.

The snarky answer is that it’s a militia in the sense of “There’s your Second Amendment, now let’s ban guns from the general population”.

The more reasoned answer is that it is a militia- sorta -kinda -in the same sense that Roderic de Borgia a.k.a. Pope Alexander VI was the successor to the Apostle Peter. Someone could write a whole book on the history of gun rights and law in the USA, starting from English antecedents and up to the present day, but to try to condense it to a few relevent paragraphs:

The original Militia Act of 1792 had required all able-bodied men not otherwise disqualified to keep their own service muskets and ammunition. But unlike the Swiss model where the entire male population had to undergo military training, this was thought impractical and unnecessarily burdensome. The requirement was reduced to participating in a yearly muster to demonstrate their readiness. But over the years even that practice became moribund. While in principle all able-bodied men in good standing were theoretically members of the militia, in practice the states routinely relied on a fairly small core of volunteers who formed each state’s standing militia.

During the American Civil War, the Union government had the authority to call out the Militias to help in suppressing the rebellion, including conscripting any able-bodied man. But by precedents going back to feudal England it was held that they could only be held to short-term service, ususally nine months, and that if they could they could pay a substitute to take their place. During the war the Union spent millions of dollars on signing bonuses to get recruits to voluntarily enlist for three-year terms in the regular Army. (The Confederacy by contrast simply asserted a general authority to conscript men for the duration.)

What eventually led to the formation of the modern National Guard was the Spanish-American war. The American forces consisted of regular Army Troops and volunteer corps recruited from the state militias. The quality and preparedness of the militia volunteers was found to be poor, and after the war there was an impetus for providing that all state militias should be trained to a Federal standard and structured to as to be able to be integrated with the regular army during wartime. The Militia Act of 1903 carried out these reforms under Congress’s power to regulate the state militias given in Article One Section Eight, clauses 15 and 16 of the Constitution. It defines trained and actively serving volunteers as the “organized” militia and everybody else as the “unorganized” militia.

Additionally, during World War One the Supreme Court, wich rather jingoistically handed down several rulings against any legal challenges in opposition to the war, ruled that Congress’s power to declare war included an implied power to draft people into the Federal Army (something that would have astonished Abraham Lincoln).

So now the role of the states and the Federal government with respect to military service have been reversed 180 degrees. Formerly only states could require citizens to undergo armed civic duty, while the Federal government could only enlist volunteers. Now the Federal government can draft at will and I can’t even think of a time in recent history when someone was involuntarily deputized to armed duty at the state level.

So the National Guards are sorta kinda a militia of volunteers recruited at the state level. By law and by practice, the National Guards of the various states are tightly knitted with the US Army Reserve. The Federal authority over the guard was even further enhanced when the Supreme Court ruled that state governors cannot forbid their troops from serving overseas in “training” missions.