Pretty much everyone is saying the same thing here, that developing enough of an opinion to decide if something is likely your thing or not, to make that educated guess, is what we all do.
Having an “axe to grind” about something though? Probably if you’re reaching that level, if you care enough about it that you are reading extensive point by point takedowns and analyses, you should just read it yourself. Until then you have an opinion more “about it” than “of it”, if that makes sense? (I can have an opinion, thoughts about why this reputedly poorly written book about this specific sort of relationship appealed to so many, especially women, without having read it, maybe.)
The sticky point is what you labeled the outrage brigade. I have heard from sources that I find are usually reliable a consensus that a particular comic is doing … transphobic … hateful … whatever … schtick. Of course it is reasonable for me to say that that isn’t for me. Do I need to consume the product, support the artist, in order to be part of a discussion about that? To condemn comedy at the expense of a population at risk for hate against them?
It can be more than fifty shades of grey … generally I think I can have an opinion about it, but someone who has seen the material themself has a better basis for their opinion than I do. I’m not going to support the artist just to better inform myself though. Usually.
I’m sorry. An uninformed opinion is worthless. Period.
And more so, why on earth would someone want to express an opinion on a subject they know nothing about?
That speaks to some sort of psychological issue within that person.
I agree that if you feel you have “an ax to grind” about 50 shades of gray you would be in a better place to discuss it if you read it, or at least a chunk of it. I read the first “left behind” novel for that reason. And yes, it’s as bad as i expected. Worse, because it wasn’t well written and got a lot of basic facts wrong. (Facts that weren’t terribly important to the story, like how to splice phone cables or go out airplane emergency exit slides.)
I have just read about the “big” changes Apple is making to the iPhone and though I have not experienced them, I have some opinions. Mostly, “meh,” but it’s an opinion.
But, if I read reviews about 50 Shades - or any other work), and talk with people who have read/seen it, and all of those opinions are pretty consistent, don’t I know SOMETHING about it?
Say I don’t like eggs, and someone who knows my eating preferences tells me, “You won’t like this dish, it has a lot of eggs and tastes really eggy.” Do I need to try it myself? Couldn’t I at least be able to say, “Because I don’t like eggs, that doesn’t appeal to me.” I’m not saying YOU oughtn’t enjoy it. Now, maybe if they tell me, “You don’t really taste the eggs,” or “Despite the eggs, you might like the seasoning,” I might at least remain equivocal about my opinion.
I’m not sure I would go around exclaiming out of the blue how much I hate eggs/50 Shades. But if someone is asking if I want to see a movie, or 50 Shades comes up in conversation, am I to remain mute?
If I hear about something that seems firmly rooted in a genre that I really like and respect - or the opposite, I could imagine expressing opinions as to how much I understand people spending a lot of time and attention on it. Or the types of people who seem to enjoy it. But I hope I acknowledge that taste is personal, and mine is not everyone’s.
A sorta related matter is - how much of something do you need to consume before expressing an informed opinion? I’m reminded of a recent thread discussing rap, where many intelligent and well-intentioned folk suggested that I might listen and “study” rap more. I appreciate that. But I also believe I am entitled to simply not like some things. That is not to say that anyone ele ought not enjoy them. But I don’t have to keep trying to understand/appreciate something that all signs suggest is not my cup of tea.
I should clarify I got upset about it when it first came out. I didn’t attempt a boycott or anything.
I don’t really feel that strongly about it anymore. But it’s a good example of a thing I have had an opinion about.
To be specific, I think the book is badly written and I think it smears people who are into BDSM as inherently abusive. And probably glorifies abusive relationships. I’m not interested in arguing whether that’s true or not, I’m just giving details about the nature of my opinion, in case it’s relevant.
I think I took it more personally at first because of how much effort I put into my own work and how low-effort 50 Shades is. There was definitely an element of sour grapes. I’ve since made peace with the fact that sometimes terrible writers are good at storytelling, which may be the case for this book. But I do see it as emblematic of my disconnect with romance readers, despite the fact this is my genre. I have read absolutely garbage romance novels that readers rave about, and I don’t understand it.
I’m guessing that’s why it got under my skin so much.
I think there is a distinction between having an artistic opinion on a work and an opinion on the objectionable content contained in a work. You need to have read/consumed a work to have an artistic opinion on it, not necessarily to point out it has objectionable content.
I have never read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries or Gone With The Wind. But I have no problem condemning them as horrendously objectionable.
There is gray area though. I mean as i understand it the depiction of the KKK in Gone With the Wind is horribly racist and definitely meant to depict them as the good guys (i mean how racist do you need to be for 1930s Hollywood to push back and cut those bits out of the film FFS?). But if you were to tell me you have read the book and actually you think in the context of the story those depictions are meant to show how terrible the KKK are and highlight the plight of slaves and freedmen in the South during and after the civil. I wouldn’t really be able to counter that without reading the book
Lots of good opinions here. I agree with what seems to be the consensus: you can have an opinion about something you haven’t read/watched yourself, and that’s usually how we decide whether we want to consume content - but it’s not a fully informed opinion.
I also agree with this, but you need to bear in mind that your info on how much and in what way the show idolises cops is secondhand, and may not be 100% accurate.
The issue here is how reliable the sources are. People have different ideas about what constitutes ‘hateful’, different views on what is appropriate material for comedy vs what is too sacred or sensitive to be laughed at, and also, it’s relatively common for readers to mistake writing about something for endorsing it. Additionally, sometimes reviewers or groups demanding boycotts have their own axe to grind, eg in the Israel/Palestine issue, where some people have an interest in silencing criticism of Israel by labelling it ‘antisemitism’ (and others potentially want to disguise antisemitism as criticism of Israel).
If you’re just deciding whether to read/view something yourself, this isn’t a problem. You can choose to avoid anything even questionable. But condemning something or joining calls for a boycott based on hearsay seems more dubious. My experience has been much like my experience with the media: the headline is dramatic and outrage inducing… and often misleading as to the content of the article. Sometimes it really is as bad as it sounds, but often the facts in the article are far more nuanced than the headline suggests. Similarly, the treatment of a controversial topic in a work is often more nuanced than the label would imply.
Yes. Just hearing something on FB isn’t enough. The sources have to have a track record of my finding them to be verifiably accurate and fair. And frankly the who is saying otherwise matters as well!
With romance in particular, I think readers will forgive a lot if a story appeals to their desires and depicts a relationship dynamic that they find compelling. More generally, if a novel does one thing well, people can be willing to forgive it doing other things badly.
And of course there is the element of chance. Many works could have broad appeal, few go viral.
ETA: with 50 Shades in particular, I suspect there may have been a gap in the mainstream romance market that it happened to fill.
It seems like you will form your opinion based on other peoples opinions not the book its self. If they are people you know and trust probably valid. If not then you may be missing out on something great because they don’t have the same values as you, or just not smart enough to get it. ( I’m definitely not talking about 50 shades here).
it is badly written: here, I think your opinion would be more valuable if you read the book
it smears people who are into BDSM: here, I think your opinion might be valid and valuable, especially if you have insight into the BDSM community, but it matters how accurately the book’s portrayal of BDSM has been in the reviews you’ve seen.
it probablu glorifies abusive relationships: Same as 2, but because “relationship” is such a broad exansive thing, it’s more damaging to your opinion to not see in full how the relationships play out in the book.
And of course, in any case where you are relying on second-hand information, the quality of that information matters. If you want to be taken seriously in your opinions re 2 or 3, I think it’s helpful to reveal at least some of your information sources, whether or not they are “I read the book”.
If you haven’t read the book firsthand and haven’t formed your opinion from direct experience, you shouldn’t present your opinions as such. And that does carry quite a bit of weight.
However, If you’ve read multiple critiques of the book from reliable and trustworthy critics, you probably have a better sense of the strengths and the problems of the book than if you only read it yourself, unless you’re also an experienced critic yourself.
It just depends on whether you’re trying to persuade yourself or others, and who those others are. But if it matters, you have my permission not to read 50 Shades of Grey unless you’re just after some horny reading. It has no redeeming literary merits at all.
Is that opinion based on your firsthand experience?
There’s kind of an inherent problem here, in that people who are into eg power exchange generally want to have a healthy relationship where everything is consensual, but that’s not necessarily the case when it comes to fantasising or reading a romance. In fantasy, a character being genuinely powerless is likely more compelling. And the same is true of many other kinks.
Fiction in general is not very realistic, and in many cases is more about enabling people to imagine or identify with playing a heroic role; doing things they can’t do or wouldn’t enjoy doing in real life.
I’d say it’s a problem in romance if readers don’t realise the relationship depicted is not a healthy one. Like, a complete fantasy scenario is probably fine, because no one is going to use it as a model. But AIUI, that’s not the case in 50 Shades, and it does have enough realistic elements that people might believe that’s how BDSM is supposed to be done.
But I haven’t read it either, so I’ll defer to those who have.
Yes, it is. My wife insisted that I give it a shot. I occasionally like some erotic fiction, but the prose was so trite and formulaic that I couldn’t even find it titillating. Obviously lots of people do find it arousing, which is fair enough, but apart from that, the book has little if anything going for it.
You can have a certain kind of opinion about something you didn’t read:
“It doesn’t seem like something I’d like”
“It’s about a subject I don’t care about”
“It’s by an author I never enjoy”
Opinions about details of something you haven’t read are more troublesome:
“It’s poorly written” (how would you know)
“It’s SJW nonsense” (likewise)
“It’s racist trash” (ditto).
On the other hand, something like this works:
“Based on the reviews I’ve seen, it’s poorly written, and life’s too short for me to give it a try unless I hear something much better about it” (still opinion, but rational (as opposed to irrational opinions like the three earlier ones."
I did know a fellow who hated the movie “Chicago” because it was a musical, and never quite understood the idea that “musicals are all bad” was an opinion.
This is a really good point, and I recently made that point in some other thread. At a certain point, fantasy is fantasy. I think I’m a bit more tetchy about putting such fantasies into the hands of young girls, but I don’t believe women are going to suddenly think abuse is great just because they indulged in a fantasy about it.
I will confess: “rich corporate CEO” holds zero appeal to me, if not outright disgusts me. I once started a book I really liked that had a kind of survival theme, the woman was lost in the woods, he was an outdoorsman, totally up my alley, until the big reveal… he was the son of some business mogul. I was so mad. So, so mad. Yet it was written well enough I ended up reading several books into the series. Doesn’t excuse the bait and switch though.
It’s not just the poor choice of words, but the fact that the author doesn’t seem aware of basic syntax. We’ve drawn conclusions about people posting on this very board for far less.
Yeah, it has a lot of the same problems as kids having access to porn: creates unrealistic expectations around potential partners as well as sex itself, can encourage people to try stuff without the knowledge to do it safely, and to some extent both can act as a substitute for real relationships. I read a bunch of Mills & Boon books as a teen (I think Harlequin would be the US equivalent) and I don’t think it was beneficial. But those were pretty vanilla. I’m glad I grew up in the last generation before ubiquitous internet porn (and so did the guys I dated), and got to discover sex through trial and error, plus some advice websites, rather than way too young on a screen.
Later I got into fan fiction, where you can find pretty much anything you like, and I’m really glad I didn’t have access to that until after I’d been in a relationship and been through that process of discovery.
It doesn’t disgust me, but it doesn’t particularly interest me either. The Mills & Boon heroes were pretty invariably some flavour of rich and successful.
I’ve read worse-written fanfics, if they were good enough in other ways. Not just kink-wise, but if a fic has an interesting storyline, good characterisation etc. And I’ve read stories that aren’t otherwise my thing, because they were well-written.
The last seems pretty unfair. People have different strengths, and different amounts of education. I’d expect better of a published author, but not of random message board posters. (This opinion has nothing to do with the fact I got a D in my English GCSE. )
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