Mutiny on the Bounty

[Nom_de_Plume]

@Dewey_Finn

I’ll bet he knows exactly who the author is, but is tired of hearing about it.

I have a friend named Harry whose wife is named Sally. Whenever someone asks “…like the movie?”, he *always *answers “What movie.”

[handsomeharry]

@Anaamika

Hmm. I know of Mutiny on the Bounty but have never seen the movie or read the book. Not purposefully, it just never happened. I would not have recognized it.

Well, I am going to the library tomorrow anyway. Time to rectify my ignorance.

However I would have recognized Captain Bligh.

If your library is anything like mine, you will have to do an interlibrary loan for the book. However, you can read it on Gutenburg.org, or Gutenburg project.org, or whatever that site is. I can’t really remember what it is called, though, because “Mutiny on the Bounty” isn’t the title. Something like “A thorough and faithful accounting of the mutiny aboard the HMS Bounty, as recounted by…” or something like that. Look it up by author, Bligh, or Bly, I can’t remember.

As for the FC biz, I have known about it since the 60s, when I was in elementary school. I have read the book, and I liked it, but only after having seen the movie. I think, IIRC, that the book may not have been that good of a read, so I can’t really believe that it may be considered a classic. However, it is abysmal that nobody with whom you work is literary enough to know about it.
For good movies, though, none are close to Mel Gibson’s “The Bounty.”

[Leaffan]

I read the book when I was maybe 10 or 12 and absolutely LOVED it. I don’t think I’ve seen the entirety of any of the movies, just bits and pieces, but my God the name should be instantly recognizable by anyone in the world, no?

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@handsomeharry

If your library is anything like mine, you will have to do an interlibrary loan for the book. However, you can read it on Gutenburg.org, or Gutenburg project.org, or whatever that site is. I can’t really remember what it is called, though, because “Mutiny on the Bounty” isn’t the title. Something like “A thorough and faithful accounting of the mutiny aboard the HMS Bounty, as recounted by…” or something like that. Look it up by author, Bligh, or Bly, I can’t remember.

The novel “Mutiny on the Bounty” was not written by Bligh, and is really historically inaccurate. Bligh wrote a book called “The Bounty Mutiny”, but I can’t vouch for its accuracy.

The one that I understand to be the best & most impartial telling of the story (though a bit dry) is called “The Bounty: The True Story of the Mutiny on the Bounty”, and is by Caroline Alexander. It also touches upon the reasons why Bligh’s name was rather unjustly dragged through history’s mud, and it also talks a good bit about Bligh’s amazing journey in the open boat they set him adrift in. He sailed it a few thousand miles & navigated without chart or compass. It’s still considered one of the greatest feats of seamanship in naval history.

(I just realized Patrick O’Brian wrote a book on the subject as well, which I need to check out.)

[The_Second_Stone]

I seriously doubt your Fletcher Christian hasn’t heard it. In fact I imagine he is quite tired of the little joke his parents played on him. I don’t care for the Brando version and think it is poorly directed although Brando did a good job being a complete jerk. I really like the Gable and Gibson versions for all the hamming done by Laughton and Hopkins. Given that the Admiralty would want to cover up any wrongdoing by Bligh leading to a mutiny, we will never know if he was a good guy or a bad guy. I find it hard to believe that a British crew would mutiny against the not as strict as usual Blight that the Admiralty portrays.

I had a meeting at a law office a few weeks ago and the retired partner told me he was going to be his associate “Pippen” for our meeting. I said I had “Great Expectations” and this 75 year old man looked at me as if I were insane. Pippen told him what I was referring to and I let it go unmentioned that he was probably named after a fool of a Took.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@The_Second_Stone

I seriously doubt your Fletcher Christian hasn’t heard it. In fact I imagine he is quite tired of the little joke his parents played on him. I don’t care for the Brando version and think it is poorly directed although Brando did a good job being a complete jerk. I really like the Gable and Gibson versions for all the hamming done by Laughton and Hopkins. Given that the Admiralty would want to cover up any wrongdoing by Bligh leading to a mutiny, we will never know if he was a good guy or a bad guy. I find it hard to believe that a British crew would mutiny against the not as strict as usual Blight that the Admiralty portrays.

The punishments he doled out were all a matter of record, and backed up by first-hand accounts. If anything, the guy was much, much too easy on his crew. The picture we have of Bligh does not come from the admiralty, but from factual events that are supported by witnesses.

Also, the majority of the crew on board the Bounty were not in favor of mutiny, but they weren’t the ones in possession of the guns. Bligh had to turn people out of his boat because there wasn’t enough room for them all.

[The_Second_Stone]

@Labrador_Deceiver

The punishments he doled out were all a matter of record, and backed up by first-hand accounts. If anything, the guy was much, much too easy on his crew. The picture we have of Bligh does not come from the admiralty, but from factual events that are supported by witnesses.

Also, the majority of the crew on board the Bounty were not in favor of mutiny, but they weren’t the ones in possession of the guns. Bligh had to turn people out of his boat because there wasn’t enough room for them all.

I was aware it was reported this way. I just think it highly unlikely. It’s highly unlikely he was too easy on his crew. That sounds like after the fact lying. If that was the case, they had no motive to mutiny. If you are under the impression that those returning were all telling the truth, you are welcome to it. I’ve seen how bureaucracies work and it is standard operating procedures for everyone to cover their asses, including witnesses.

[Moirai]

Haven’t we had a Report on this, from either Cecil or Staff?

I can’t find it using the search function, but I was sure we had seen one…

[Moirai]

Here is the Staff Report from Matt Craver, and the thread it spawned.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@The_Second_Stone

I was aware it was reported this way. I just think it highly unlikely. It’s highly unlikely he was too easy on his crew. That sounds like after the fact lying. If that was the case, they had no motive to mutiny. If you are under the impression that those returning were all telling the truth, you are welcome to it. I’ve seen how bureaucracies work and it is standard operating procedures for everyone to cover their asses, including witnesses.

Sorry, but it’s obvious you haven’t read much of anything on the subject if you say they had no motive for mutiny. Fletcher Christian and a few other sailors had taken wives on Tahiti in the many months they spent there & wanted to get back to them.

It’s absurd to say that the Admiralty would have wanted to cover their asses to the degree they would falsify evidence. You are aware they Court Marshalled Bligh upon his return? There wasn’t anything to cover, even if Bligh had acted in the way history portrays him. It wouldn’t have been an excuse anyway, and the admiralty wouldn’t have given a tinker’s damn. On top of that, the testimony never disputed that Bligh was lax in his punishment. It wasn’t until Heywood, one of the convicted mutineers, tried to escape the death penalty that fairly vicious & unfounded rumors about Bligh started to circulate around England.

Agian, it wasn’t just “those who returned” who were giving testimony. There were several people who were left behind who testified when they returned with several accused mutineers. I’ve already pointed out that it was a minority of sailors on Christian’s side, both during and after the mutiny.

[The_Second_Stone]

@EJsGirl

Here is the Staff Report from Matt Craver, and the thread it spawned.

And this report contains the following:

Later Bligh was made governor of New South Wales, Australia, where he provoked another mutiny, apparently due to his blunt and acerbic efforts to impose regular discipline on the rowdy soldiers of the colony; again he was acquitted of responsibility. He ended his career as Vice-Admiral of the Blue, the seventh-highest ranking officer in the Royal Navy.

A British naval officer the victim of two mutinies? He was a very good navigator, and I am not contesting that. But he must have been incredibly annoying to have incited two mutinies in his career.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@The_Second_Stone

And this report contains the following:
A British naval officer the victim of two mutinies? He was a very good navigator, and I am not contesting that. But he must have been incredibly annoying to have incited two mutinies in his career.

“Annoying” is perhaps the nicest thing you could say about the vast majority of naval captains of the era.

[The_Second_Stone]

@Labrador_Deceiver

Sorry, but it’s obvious you haven’t read much of anything on the subject if you say they had no motive for mutiny. Fletcher Christian and a few other sailors had taken wives on Tahiti in the many months they spent there & wanted to get back to them.

It’s absurd to say that the Admiralty would have wanted to cover their asses to the degree they would falsify evidence. You are aware they Court Marshalled Bligh upon his return? There wasn’t anything to cover, even if Bligh had acted in the way history portrays him. It wouldn’t have been an excuse anyway, and the admiralty wouldn’t have given a tinker’s damn. On top of that, the testimony never disputed that Bligh was lax in his punishment. It wasn’t until Heywood, one of the convicted mutineers, tried to escape the death penalty that fairly vicious & unfounded rumors about Bligh started to circulate around England.

Agian, it wasn’t just “those who returned” who were giving testimony. There were several people who were left behind who testified when they returned with several accused mutineers. I’ve already pointed out that it was a minority of sailors on Christian’s side, both during and after the mutiny.

Yes, I am saying that they were covering their asses. No, I was not suggesting that they had no motive to mutiny, although I suppose it could be read “straight” that way if the reader of my post had utterly no nose for sarcasm. Obviously they had ample motive to mutiny, as suggested by the fact that they did and that mutiny in the Royal Navy was rare. While I haven’t read all the books or seen all the movies (I’ve seen the big three), I know enough to know that Bligh’s story doesn’t add up. I know that “witnesses” will say one thing in the thick of labor troubles and another on the stand under oath. I know that Bligh was the subject of two mutinies in his career, which is two more than most British officers ever experience.

I would suggest that you know very little about how bureaucracies work and very little about human nature if you think Bligh was a sweet heart.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@The_Second_Stone

I know enough to know that Bligh’s story doesn’t add up. I know that “witnesses” will say one thing in the thick of labor troubles and another on the stand under oath. I know that Bligh was the subject of two mutinies in his career, which is two more than most British officers ever experience.

I would suggest that you know very little about how bureaucracies work and very little about human nature if you think Bligh was a sweet heart.

Bligh’s story, the one you say doesn’t add up, is not contested by any historian I can think of. If it doesn’t add up, then the math is primarily due to ignorance on the subject. Frankly, I can’t even figure out what part doesn’t add up. The part where Christian, one of Bligh’s favorites who happened to receive a promotion on the cruise, was the man who led the mutiny against his captain? Bligh didn’t incite the mutiny. Christina didn’t want to leave the Pacific, and was willing to enslave a bunch of people after the mutiny so that he could attempt to live in relative comfort.

Also, I never said Bligh was a sweetheart. By all accounts, he was a jackass. Most captains were. You’re looking to the wrong motive.

[Moirai]

No one is saying that Bligh was a sweetheart, but nor was he a tyrant. The British Navy of the era was notorious for harsh, some would say inhumane, discipline. He apparently had no “people skills” whatsoever and although a gifted navigator was not a well-rounded officer.

[The_Second_Stone]

When a gun turret on the USS Iowa blew up killing 40 plus sailors the US Navy covered up early detonation of the powder from an still burning ember of a previous firing as the cause (previously believed to be a likely danger to the whole turret) by blaming it on the suicidal tendencies of a supposedly homosexual sailor. This version of events was thoroughly discredited. I also refer our various readers to the railroading of Dreyfus in France in The Dreyfus Affair. Military bureaucracies do scapegoat covering up with enough frequency that Hollywood need never actually do fiction, as the truth is far more outrageous and entertaining (to those not libeled) than any fantasist could possibly envision.

Now there is no way that Fletcher did not actually commit a capital crime, as there was no legal excuse for mutiny under any circumstances. Nuff said. But to suggest that Bligh never did anything in the slightest to bring it on and that it was Fletcher and his mates who came up with it out of thin air and it was all nonsense allegations against Bligh demands to know why the Royal Navy didn’t have a mutiny every month, when in fact they were very rare. Bligh was mutinied twice in his career when most officers never see one. If we had a time machine and could put a web cam on the Bounty we could find out why, but to say that months later witnesses in England backed up Bligh when they had no other pony to back is so naive as to be credulous.

[carnivorousplant]

@Labrador_Deceiver

Bligh had to turn people out of his boat because there wasn’t enough room for them all.

Including Midshipman Peter Heywood, who thought he was rescued by Pandora, but was caged on the deck in “Pandora’s Box”, and nearly drowned when Pandora was wrecked. Accused of mutiny by Bligh, he was pardoned by the King and achieved Flag rank before his death. Bligh also had a mutiny as Governor of Australia. He was an excellent small boatman, but apparently an ass as a commander of men.

I didn’t finish the thread before I posted about Heywood, sorry.

[Isamu]

@The_Second_Stone

I had a meeting at a law office a few weeks ago and the retired partner told me he was going to be his associate “Pippen” for our meeting. I said I had “Great Expectations” and this 75 year old man looked at me as if I were insane. Pippen told him what I was referring to and I let it go unmentioned that he was probably named after a fool of a Took.

???

Wasn’t the Great Expectations character “Pip” (Philip Pirrip)? I don’t recall “Pippen”.

[Moirai]

SDSTAFF Matt Craver is not only a good writer but a good researcher, so when he writes this in a staff report, I give him the benefit of the doubt that it’s the Straight Dope-

By these standards, Bligh’s disciplinary habits were not especially harsh. In fact, one could arguably call his discipline relatively light for the day. A reflection of this can be seen in the division of mutineers and loyalists. That “nearly his entire crew” participated in the mutiny is a completely false impression created by fiction. Of the 44 men on the Bounty, only 18 joined Fletcher Christian; 4 more men who wished to get into the lifeboat into which Bligh and the other loyalists were set had to be forcibly restrained on board the ship. On return to England, every surviving member of the Bounty’s officers and crew was given a chance to officially register any complaints they might have had against Bligh, and none did. Apparently Bligh was more likely to scold or berate a man when other captains might have resorted to physical discipline — and this, ironically enough, may have been part of the cause of the mutiny, as Christian in particular was subject to what one biographer calls “foul-mouthed nagging” from Bligh.

Why was this? Well, though Bligh may not have been the worst boss ever, neither was he particularly a good one. In today’s office, he would be considered an unpleasantly picky micromanager. Bligh was, it so happened, a brilliant navigator — Captain James Cook personally selected Bligh to perform navigation duties on his third voyage to the South Pacific — and Christian’s responsibilities on the Bounty, it so happened, included assisting in navigation of the ship. Bligh meddled in Christian’s work constantly and belittled his efforts enough that Christian evidently considered his treatment “intolerable.” Unlike today’s office worker, a warrant officer in the Georgian-era Royal Navy couldn’t try suggesting that his boss back off a bit. Christian’s options were limited to living with the unending criticism, desertion, or mutiny. Ultimately he went with number three.

When Bligh did return to England, he was, as you point out, far from reprimanded for his behavior. Some books make much of the fact that he faced a court-martial, but this carried no sense of suggested wrongdoing — in the Royal Navy, any commanding officer who loses a ship faces one. Even the captains of British ships lost in the Falklands War faced courts-martial on their return, despite the entire world’s having seen what had happened. Bligh, in any case, was quickly acquitted of responsibility for the loss of the Bounty.

In understanding this, it’s vitally important to understand that the 18th-century Royal Navy was on an almost permanent war footing, and no lapse of discipline was tolerated. Mutineers were automatically in the wrong. If you participated in one, the best you could hope for would be to demonstrate that you were coerced into it or held against your will — and even that might only get you hanged and buried honorably rather than having your head spitted on a pike. In short, the admiralty saw no fault in Bligh’s behavior.

In fact, Bligh soon enough became a national hero. He was received at a levee by King George III, and (as you mention) promoted. Almost directly after his acquittal he was elevated from lieutenant to commander and was given a 14-gun sloop, HMS Falcon. A mere month later he was promoted to the rank of post-captain. (What distinguished a post-captain from a “regular” captain was that post-captain was a permanent rank, where captain was a position. Once you became a post-captain, you held the rank until you died, resigned, or were promoted to rear admiral.) In assigning Bligh this rank, the navy waived a customary three-year service period; at the time, this was a sure sign of favor in both the admiralty and at the royal court. Bligh’s greatest difficulty on his return, it seems, wasn’t justifying his behavior in light of the mutiny, but rather explaining to Sir Joseph Banks, his patron and the sponsor of the Bounty’s mission, what had happened to those breadfruit trees.

He must have made an acceptable accounting of himself, as at Banks’s urging Bligh was sent on a second voyage to Tahiti in 1791 to obtain some more. The Bounty had been a small and undermanned ship; now Bligh was given command of a large, newly built vessel, HMS Providence, and a full complement of officers and crew. This time the trees arrived safely in England.

Later Bligh was made governor of New South Wales, Australia, where he provoked another mutiny, apparently due to his blunt and acerbic efforts to impose regular discipline on the rowdy soldiers of the colony; again he was acquitted of responsibility. He ended his career as Vice-Admiral of the Blue, the seventh-highest ranking officer in the Royal Navy.

So, I’ll say it again- nobody is saying that Bligh wasn’t an asshole. But many captains were worse. Indeed, it may have been Bligh’s lack of harsh discipline that led to the mutiny (at least the first one- the second seems a result of Bligh being overly harsh).

[carnivorousplant]

@EJsGirl

Indeed, it may have been Bligh’s lack of harsh discipline that led to the mutiny (at least the first one- the second seems a result of Bligh being overly harsh).

I’m trying to decide to agree with you or not.