My 90 year old neighbor is shot down by the po-pos

The BBQ Pit
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[QUOTE=Frank]
Why in the world should you think anyone was trying to make you angry by this? I should think that most of us who are not professionally involved would think of them as guards. Sorry if I’m not up to date on the latest jargon.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but it seemed like brownie55 was trying to belittle him in the same manner that catsix implied that Deputy Warden was a “courtesy title”.

As for the dog thing that was mentioned a page or so back, yes I was saying that if my house was raided my biggest concern would be for my dogs. I’m not worried that I’d be shot myself because I would comply with the police’s orders and make no sudden motions. I am not, in any way, saying that a dog being shot is worse (or even the same as) a person being shot.

That said, I make my bows and exit stage left.

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[QUOTE=Lissa]

As my husband has always told me, and he carries this concern with him everyday.
“I must make life and death decisions on a daily basis. I assure you, that after I make a decision that results in public attention, I will be questioned, maligned, vilified and second-guessed. I welcome being questioned, that is my job. As a public servant, I welcome it and believe that questioning authority is inherent in the maintenace of a free society. However, I remind all parties that hindsight is 20/20 and irrational hatred for anyone with authority breeds irrational assertions, jumping to conclusions and false judgments.”
[/QUOTE]

Amen. Now, that’s truth right there. All of it.

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[QUOTE=Frank]
Why in the world should you think anyone was trying to make you angry by this? I should think that most of us who are not professionally involved would think of them as guards. Sorry if I’m not up to date on the latest jargon.
[/QUOTE]
I took it the same way Lissa did, especially from catsix, who never misses a chance to be aggressively hostile and dismissive.

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Let me just pop in her and clear a few thing up okay?

  1. There is nothing wrong about being a Corrections Officer. They don’t just hire anyone off the street, and they don’t sit on their asses making sure nobody escapes. My husband was an Officer 3 years ago. Lastyear he became a Corporal, and he’ll be a Sergeant next Spring. These are not meaningless titles. His promotions came from being one of the best at his facility, passing guys that have been there 20 years. Along with his usual duties as head of “intake”, he’s the leader (at his facility) of the Special Ops team, that gets called out for riots, escapes, and lockdowns for all the facilities in the state. AND he’s part of a Nationwide network of COs and other Law Enforcement agencies, that catalog and keep track of every single gang member that comes through the system.

He is NOT a cop wannabe. And anyone who does want to be a cop, but fails to meet their standards, WILL NOT be hired by the State Dept. of Corrections as an Officer. I don’t know about County, they do things differently.

  1. Wardens and Deputy Wardens are appointed positions. They are not required to have any background in law enforcement or the Dept. of Corrections. Although most do.

  2. “Po-po”, is both singular and plural.

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Good to see that this isn’t a recurring pattern or anything.

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link

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/topstory/story/13050799p-13707016c.html

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[QUOTE=Lissa]
Now, as for the OP. I have laid out my arguments and I have received many insults in response. That is cool, it is the pit and all. But, the focus has turned personal rather than on the subject and I am going to bow out.
[/QUOTE]

Any poster could make this lame ass excuse to not respond to substantive criticisms of their argument at any time. Thanks for arguing, but then pussying out on having to actually deal with the logic of the responses. Thanks for wasting everyones time.

You DON’T get to whine about being rational and reasoned when you are unwilling to respond substantively to criticism. Only people that stick around to defend their arguments get to do that, sorry.

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Lissa, while you have been reasonable and rational about this, I wouldn’t say you’ve limited what you said to simply asking people to wait for all the evidence. Your views about the citizen being at fault automatically whenever anything goes wrong in a police raid are objectionable and somewhat disturbing.

That said, the responses you’ve gotten have been a mix of rational critiques of points you’ve made, along with some personal stuff - fairly typical for the pit, it hasn’t only been the latter.

In any case, I’m not sure who will defend the police now. I guess we’ll all have a circle jerk fantasizing about killing cops without interruption

:rolleyes: :wink:

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Because such courtesy titles are given out all the time in all kinds of industries. I’m not going to apologize to you because deputy warden sounds like the myraid of sanitation engineers and vice president of niche marketing in the east bumfuck region.

It still doesn’t make you any more of an expert on cops than any other museum employee.

They are also, unfortunately, predictable given her history of comments here regarding police and constant emphasis on ‘my hubby works in a prison.’

She’s never going to respond substantiely to criticism. That would require something other than the automatic assumption that the police are always right, the citizens always wrong, their tactics flawless, and their ‘blue wall’ (which she admits is used to keep alcoholics carrying guns and badges because other cops cover for them when they oughta be in rehab) is not a problem.

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[QUOTE=catsix]
Because such courtesy titles are given out all the time in all kinds of industries. I’m not going to apologize to you because deputy warden sounds like the myraid of sanitation engineers and vice president of niche marketing in the east bumfuck region.

[/QUOTE]

What do you suggest a Deputy Warden be called? “The person who helps the Warden”? The person who does practicly everything the Warden does, with less pay and less recognition"?

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[QUOTE=catsix]
She’s never going to respond substantiely to criticism. That would require something other than the automatic assumption that the police are always right, the citizens always wrong, their tactics flawless, and their ‘blue wall’ (which she admits is used to keep alcoholics carrying guns and badges because other cops cover for them when they oughta be in rehab) is not a problem.
[/QUOTE]

And you always take the exact opposite position and will not listen to anything else. So how is that different?

332

Lissa,

Thank you for your detailed explanation of your husband’s involvement in these raids. I am sorry that I had missed where you discussed those details before, and I appreciate you taking the time to repost them. From the perspective you give, it makes perfect sense for him to participate on raids. I apologize for trying to characterize him as a wannabe.

I meant no disrespect when I called him a prison guard. I had no idea that you would be so sensitive to that. I wrongly assumed he had worked his way up, not that he had been appointed to a top slot. I was focused on the job function and not the job title. Will you admit that Corrections Officers, among their duties, act as prison guards?

I, too, have worked with cops, lots of them. I was a computer systems consultant to a federal police organization and I got to know many of the officers and officials. The cops I have known pretty much reflect the society I know. Sinners and saints exist in about an equal mix for both groups.

You appear to believe that that would be an acceptable mix. I don’t. Police have guns and the average citizen on the streets does not. That’s already a huge imbalance of power. Add in a bad attitude and general distrust and the chance of disaster grows. I have met my share of Rambos and guys that really do think that anybody not in uniform is guilty of something. This scares me and sets the police up, both good and bad, for unneeded confrontations. I’d like to see the hostility dialed back, and the police will have to start it. They will also have to kick to the curb officers that are abusive. Sadly, this also gets included in the blue wall you acknowledged earlier.

Every cop is not a criminal, we both know that. But all of us, citizens, cops, and cops’ families have to be willing to see that abuses of power do occur, and those should never be swept away with a sad reliance to procedures. Blaming the poor guy on the receiving end of a beat down or shooting for not complying fast enough because he just got awakened is sadly naïve. Catsix was berated by you and others for being willing to shoot anybody busting into her home. I’ll admit that I have mixed feeling, but tend to side with her on that. But you didn’t, you demanded positive target identification. OK, taking your side should the burden not fall to police to identify real threats? If they are not willing to differentiate between a teacup and a 9mm, why should anyone bother to find out who the guy that kicked down the door was before opening up?

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[QUOTE=brownie55]

snip

Every cop is not a criminal, we both know that. But all of us, citizens, cops, and cops’ families have to be willing to see that abuses of power do occur, and those should never be swept away with a sad reliance to procedures. Blaming the poor guy on the receiving end of a beat down or shooting for not complying fast enough because he just got awakened is sadly naïve. Catsix was berated by you and others for being willing to shoot anybody busting into her home. I’ll admit that I have mixed feeling, but tend to side with her on that. But you didn’t, you demanded positive target identification. OK, taking your side should the burden not fall to police to identify real threats? If they are not willing to differentiate between a teacup and a 9mm, why should anyone bother to find out who the guy that kicked down the door was before opening up?
[/QUOTE]

I know I said I would bow out, but I would consider it rude if I left your questions unanswered.

Police have the responsibility to differentiate between targets as well. In general, they should not use deadly force unless confronted with deadly force/serious harm, or to prevent deadly force/serious harm from being committed against someone else.

There are other exceptions to that rule in some law enforcement situations. Such as a riot in a prison or an escape from a prison where deadly force is authorized by law. I am sure there are others out there that I do not know.

I wish this was a simple black-white issue, it is not. Cops are not always right. I said it in my early posts, the situation needs to be investigated and scrutinized. Allegations that I always support the police are unfounded. Just recently, there was a thread about the use of tazers. I originally posted stipulating that the film was not enough for the outrage and that an investigation needed to be completed. After seeing the entire film, I reposted acknowledging that there was cause for concern(i.e. I see what they were concerned about and I even acknowledged that my previous arguments were not appliable to the situation), but I would reserve final judgment until all the facts were in.

It is not a sign of weakness, in any way, to admit when you are wrong. I have no qualms about doing so.

If, in some way, the idea has been hatched that I will blindly support police no matter what they do, then let me categorically state this is not true. However, based upon a linked article, posted within 24 hours of an incident, I would not engage in concluding that: A) the police officers were wrong and it is good what happened to them, B) the woman was blameless simply because she was old, C) the woman was guilty of wrongdoing simply because there was a warrant, or D) the tactics utilized by the police were inappropriate.

This thread got into “no-knock warrants”, the “war on drugs” and the use of force in private homes. Just look back through it, you will see references to: middle of the night, no-knock warrants, undercover-unidentified. Then, you will see, 7:00 p.m., marked cruiser outfront and an announced warrant. We do not know the facts.

I would make a long post to try and explain something, and some people would jump on one single sentence.

I ask the reasonable people this: How can we judge this situation so quickly and without the facts? Statements like “I’ll shoot anyone who busts in my door”, “the cops deserved it”, “the old lady deserved it” are just not rational. They are absolutes and give us nothing to discuss.

I just cannot justify, however, the assertion that one should shoot first and ask questions later. Police should not do this, nor should the citizenry.

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[QUOTE=brownie55]
Lissa,
I meant no disrespect when I called him a prison guard. I had no idea that you would be so sensitive to that. I wrongly assumed he had worked his way up, not that he had been appointed to a top slot. I was focused on the job function and not the job title. Will you admit that Corrections Officers, among their duties, act as prison guards?

[/QUOTE]

I forgot… (hopefully we can put this hijack to rest after this)

I mistakenly thought you were engaging in the behavior similar to other posters. My mistake and my apologies.

However, I am not sure where you got the idea that he did not work his way up. There are diifferent ways to be promoted than to be a Corrections Officer first.

He was a case manager, unit manager, warden’s administrative assistant, investigator, labor relations officer, human services administrator and then a Deputy Warden of Programs, then Security. So he did work his way up.

Now, as for prison guards. That term was abandoned decades ago (although it still remains in the public vernacular- the press loves it) when the Correctional Services became more professionalized. Guard is representative of the time of “Shawshank Redemption” and Attica, when the “hole” actually meant that. It was typically a deep, dark, duncgeon-like place with a “hole” in the floor. I am not saying this does not exist in the world, probably somewhere in the U.S., but must states of entered the reform era of prisons.

The term Guard brings up the idea that all they do is guard, i.e. watch. Corrections Officers do a lot more. A lot of people have misconceptions about prisons, the most common is that inmates are locked up most of the time. Most prisons do not even have cells and house their offenders in large open style dormitories. One officer may have to work in an area with 340 other inmates, by themselves. They have to be communicators, social workers, police officers, sanitation organizers, labor managers and conflict resolutionists. When you are outnumbered like that, being a “guard” just would not cut it.

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[QUOTE=catsix]
I have no reason to expect the police to be crashing my door in or coming through the windows of my house. So why would they?

Why would they be coming into my house? There’s no reason for a cop, let alone many, to enter my house by force. There’s no reason for anyone who lives here to not use their keys. Everyone else rings the door bell. My friends give me advance notice of when they’re coming by, to make sure I’m home and not busy.

Therefore the only reason that I can reasonably see for someone breaking the door down or smashing a window to get in is criminal activity, potentially meaning my life is in danger. That’s the situation I am prepared to defend myself in.
[/QUOTE]

catsix, I get and fully support your home defence angle, but help me out here, this is the part that I’m not getting. Are you suggesting that you would shoot the cops even if you knew they were cops?

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[QUOTE=catsix]
Because such courtesy titles are given out all the time in all kinds of industries. I’m not going to apologize to you because deputy warden sounds like the myraid of sanitation engineers and vice president of niche marketing in the east bumfuck region.

It still doesn’t make you any more of an expert on cops than any other museum employee.

[/quote]
As often seems to be the case, the mere fact that you are wrong does not change your mind.

Regards,
Shodan

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I’m saying I would have absolutely no reason to think that someone who kicks in my door or breaks in through a window would be a cop. The only people who would have any reason at all to enter my home that way are criminals.

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[QUOTE=catsix]
I’m saying I would have absolutely no reason to think that someone who kicks in my door or breaks in through a window would be a cop. The only people who would have any reason at all to enter my home that way are criminals.
[/QUOTE]
As if cops never raid houses based on bad info…

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To summarize:

the informant who was supposedly the ultra-reliable basis of the warrant says that he never did the key set-up drug buy or told the police any of the major elements that they used to justify the warrant. In fact, he says that the person who was the subject of the warrant didn’t even exist and that the POLICE TOLD HIM TO LIE for the purposes of backing up their story.

The suspected drugs? Nope, no drugs. And no one can seem to explain why this house was even targeted in the first place.

SWAT style tactics that took the life of another man, whose suspected crime was “betting on football with friends” (OH NO!), have resulted in the three week leave of the officer who accidentally put his finger on the trigger, accidentally was pointing his weapon at the man, and accidentally discharged and killed the unarmed man, who did nothing more than come to his door. The officer wasn’t charged with anything, nor were any of the people who set up the policies that led to the man’s death, which is no surprise: no officer has been charged with anything in Fairfax in 40 years.

The best part? While all this was in the news, the vice department went ahead with a public campaign whose slogan was: “Illegal Gambling: Not Worth the Risk” Apparently, not.

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[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
the reason they don’t operate as you describe is because it gives the people inside of the home time to dispose of drugs down the toilet or wherever.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that modern forensic chemistry can’t easily demonstrate that from a water sample from the toilet. That excuse is BS.