Curious post Kevbo.
I’m having difficulty squaring this:
with this:
and this:
cop throws down a brown paper bag
Cop: Ooh! Ooh! What’s this, then?
Suspect: It’s a sandwich.
Cop: Blimey! Whatever did I give the wife?
There is, of course, a Python quote for everything.
You laugh, but in fact that is pretty much what some criminals are now doing.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/east/s_479616.html
All I know is that if someone started banging and then trying to knock the door to my house down, I wouldn’t be able to hear them “announcing” anything about being police officers or whatever else. I can’t even hear the UPS guy until I actually open the door.
I also note that it seems like under questioning, the timing of the announcement shifted from before the door got kicked in, to during.
I’m still not clear what the point of the increasingly paramilitary tactics of the police in serving warrants is supposed to accomplish. As far as I can tell, it seems to increase the dangers to civilians, increase the dangers to police. Who benefits, other than people like Shodan who enjoy being contrarian and trying to portray any criticism of police policy as somehow hating police officers?
Forget the actions of the grandma: is this really what you think is a good way for police to serve a warrant for a non-violent crime. REALLY?
Because it was presumably about DRUGS! Not a kidnapping or a hostage situation. Nothing desperate, or time-sensitive. Why did the cops have to go in unannounced, at 3 am, breaking down doors and guns blazing? Supposedly this warrant was because of some intelligence or info the police got. Couldn’t they have waited a day or 2? Had some REALLY undercover officer actually try to BUY DRUGS there? THEN gone in in force.
Why are the cops so willing to perpetrate a home invasion on such supposedly flimsy information?
3 am? Upthread kittenblue said 7 pm. Not picking on you if6was9, but is there some consensus somewhere regarding the time?
The OP was in Atlanta, and the only article he could find on this was on a website from Seattle?
Yes. Checking back to the time of the OP, it was 7ish pm. Dark… but point taken. And since I quoted from page 2, too late as it turns out… I’ll add this. If they found drugs there… or bought drugs somewhere else from someone else who says he lived there, it’s STILL just drugs. There is no reason for a supposed accomplise to a drug dealer to be set upon like this. This isn’t Russia, or 30’s Germany. There are supposed to be courts and Due Process to handle these things, not the barrel of a gun.
It was 7 PM, not 3 AM. Preliminary reports indicate they did make a buy and did investigate prior to the issuance of a warrant. Preliminary reports indicate the presence of narcotics. So, although there needs to be more investigation, your assertions are based on what?
I am seeing a lot of raw hatred towards the police as the primary motivation for the people who are angry over this. One poster thinks it would have been better for the police to be killed. Others, stipulate it does not matter what the law is, because the law is wrong (i.e. the War on Drugs is Wrong) so ipso-facto, the police are wrong and evil. Finally, others are saying that tactical entries are MORE dangerous in these situations.
As for the first assertion: kill the cops. I am not really sure how to address this. The notion that a good cop is a dead cop does not leave much room for rational debate. If a person has this assumption, I am pretty sure that debating over any police tactic is futile. I would liken something this extreme to an attempt to debate a political extremist, such as a Muslim fundamentalist terrorist or an extreme Right Wing member of a “patriot” militia group. Reason cannot be effective on people who allow blind hatred to cloud their judgment.
Secondly, in regards to the War on Drugs, no knock warrants and such. There is no indication, at this time, this was a no-knock warrant. As for the police execution of the warrant and the tactics they used, this must be investigated. For the record, I am also opposed to the War on Drugs. Evidence has shown that it is very similar to earlier attempts at alcohol prohibition and it has led to the proliferation of violent crimes (created by a powerful black market that is lucrative) and rampant incarceration which leads to high levels of spending that could be better used in combatting the criminogenic causes of crime such as poor education, poor employment, drug/alcohol abuse, mental health problems and poor conflict resolution skills.
However, the fact is, we live in a Republic that has decided to make these actions illegal. An unintended consequence of these prohibitive efforts is the creation of a violent subculture surrounding the drug distribution networks. Police tactics have evolved in response to this and in order to facilitate officer safety when enforcing these laws, certain civil liberties have been eroded. One of these, is in regards to serving warrants. I am sorry to inform many of you, but the people who deal drugs, many times, are not non-violent offenders. They are part of a subculture of violence. They carry guns to protect their interests and use them to defend, and attack, anyone who opposes them, including the police. It is NOT an option for police to ignore the laws, nor fail to protect themselves in the course of executing LEGAL search warrants.
I cannot agree more with sentiments such as, “this is a regrettable situation, it never would have happened if we did not have the War on Drugs”. But combined with this must also be an understanding that the officers taking the actions like this are following the law. They had to go to a judge to get a warrant. I could not agree more that with every drug warrant being served, from low-risk to high-risk, the possibility for this type of tragedy to occur is increased.
Nonetheless, the assumption that the police were always wrong in these situations, is just as flawed as the assumption that a 90 year old could not be a criminal. She may have been well aware of the drugs on the premises. She may have been well aware they were cops and she may have shot to kill for this reason. She may hate the police with a passion, and saw this as an oportunity to make her stand. The assumption she was a poor, frightened old lady is so flawed that I don’t know where to begin. Nonetheless, as I pointed out very early in this thread, the more likely scenario is that she was VICTIMIZED by her own family. What type of SOB’s run a drug operation out of granny’s house and store their narcotics there. Forget the police for a second, don’t you think that they put granny at risk from OTHER criminals when they did this? Drug houses and holding centers are well known to the illicit underground and they make excellent targets for opportunistic criminals. BUT, the facts are still not in so I will not conclude that the police were right or wrong, just like I will not conclude that granny was an innocent victim or a violent predator.
As much as I feel the War on Drugs created this sub-culture of violence, this does not forgive or justify the violent actions of the people associated with it.
Finally, as for the tactics used. Tactical entries ARE safer for the police in most situations. Every second a police officer stands outside a door waiting for the respondent, increases the chances of the target becoming fortified, armed or taking the initiative and gaining a tremendous advantage. MANY police officers have been killed while serving warrants because they knock on the door, wait for the respondent and get fired upon through the door or from a window. Although I agree that police should have to face certain risks and dangers inherent with their job, and these are necessary to prevent unnecessary loss of life, they do not, in any way, have to volunteer to be easy targets for less scrupulous people to kill.
The more I read many of the statements herein, do I see that the general undertone is a disdain for the police as the primary motive behind the criticism. Police are a vital part of maintaining public order and safety. Their tactics must ALWAYS be under review. They should be throroughly investigated whenever they use force, especially deadly force. Furthermore, there should be many checks and balances to ensure that the civil liberties of the general public and suspects are maintained. Actions should be taken to curb corruption and prevent the “rogue” cop syndrome that is celebrated by popular culture. But, I have heard so many references to “having drugs to drop”, “jack-booted thugs being over-aggressive” and “cops lying to protect themselves after serving a bad warrant, not identifying themselves etc…” that I have now realized that many people really assume police officers are bad people.
I acknowledge that there are numerous examples of police corruption, there are numerous examples of over-zealous, callous police tactics. But, this does not overhsadow the fact that many police officers and other Law Enforcement officials really take their committment to “serve and protect” seriously. I know this will not make a dent in some people’s minds about police, but the only thing I ask is to allow for investigation of these matters before condeming officers and not blaming the individuals who enforce the laws for the actions of those who create the laws.
Recently, some major controversies have erupted in a community nearby me that roused some hatred for the police. In response, someone authored the following anonymously and sent it into the paper. I don’t agree with everything that is written, but I think it goes to show that the anger/hatred people have toward police really strikes home with these men or women.
*Dear Mr./Mrs. Citizen
Well, I guess you have figured me out. I seem to fit neatly into the category you place me in. I’m stereotyped, characterized, standardized, classified, grouped, and always typical. I am the lousy cop.
Unfortunately, the reverse isn’t true. I can never figure you out. From birth you teach your children that I am a person to beware of. Then, you are shocked when they identify me with my traditional enemy…The criminal.
You accuse me of coddling juveniles, until I catch your kid doing something wrong.
You take an hour lunch, and several coffee breaks each day, then, point me out as a loafer if you see me have just one cup.
You pride yourself on your polished manners, but think nothing of interrupting my meals at noon with your troubles.
You raise hell about the guy who cuts you off in traffic, but, let me catch you doing the same thing, and all of a sudden I am picking on you.
You know ALL the traffic laws, but, never got one single ticket you deserved.
You shout “Abuse of Authority” if you see me driving fast to an emergency call, but raise 9 kinds of hell if I take more than 30 seconds responding to yours.
You call it “Part of my job” if someone hits me, but yell “Police brutality” if I strike back.
You would never think of telling your dentist how to pull a badly decayed tooth, or your doctor how to take out your appendix, but, you are ALWAYS willing to give me pointers on how to be a police officer.
You talk to me in a manner, and use language that would assure a bloody nose from anyone else, but, you expect me to stand there and take your verbal abuse without batting an eye.
You cry, “Something has to be done about crime”, but you cant be bothered to get involved.
You have no use for me what so ever, but of course, it’s OK for me to change a tire for your wife, or deliver your baby in the back seat of my patrol car enroute to the hospital, or, save your sons life with CPR and mouth to mouth resuscitation, or even forsake time with MY family working long hours overtime trying to find your lost daughter.
So, dear citizen, you stand there on your soapbox and rant and rave about the way I do my job, calling me every name in the book, but, never stop a minute to think that your property, your family, and maybe your life might someday depend on one thing…Me.
Respectfully,
A Lousy Cop*
I’m no great lover of cops, because of the truth that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I also grew up in Frank Rizzo’s Philadelphia.
Having said that, your post just above mine makes me think I need to seriously reexamine some of my long-held predjudices. I’m serious. As a former E.M.T. who didn’t get meals, put their hands on the bodies of strangers in efforts to help them out, missed family events and was frequently shown slightly preferential treatment by cops, I always forget that a huge part of what cops do is Fill The Gaps in life.
Many officers go their entire career and only discharge their firearm at the range when they’re re-qualifying for the job.
Thank you for this post, Lissa, and for eloquently making me think very hard about how I feel about something.
Cartooniverse
The issue here is not the cops or even Grandma - it’s the warrant. No-knock warrants, or even ones where they yell “Police” and kick in the door, are extremely dangerous and becoming more common. And frankly, the police are sufficiently incompetent that they’ve gotten a number of officers and innocent civilians killed, generally because the idiots made no attempt to investigate before kicking in the door.
These warrants are not intended to be used for ordinary busts. They are intended only for situations known to be dangerous, where the officers cannot safely investigate. Officers should never be allowed to bust down doors, inflict property damage, and run around yelling and waving guns just because they don’t feel like knocking and waiting politely. It’s not as if they cannot get the door open if no one responds.
Frankly, in this case I am highly suspicious of the police’s story. It may turn out to be true, but their version doesn’t make sense at all. If someone starts shooting as you go up to a house, you don’t run up and kick in the door: you generally hunker down and get backup. Second, I’m inclined to believe the family would have noted if anyone else lived there. What most likely happened is that they screamed something unintelligable (you trying hearing somebody yell something outside) and kicked in the door, and got the crap shot out of them. And Rightly so. They deserved to die: not for crimes, but for grotesque stupidity.
Because, of course, that is standard mandatory police procedure :rolleyes: And sure, the Highway Patrol when approaching my car always bust up my taillight…
Hey! This gives me an idea.
Let’s have the cops bust into a random house every night. Let’s do the standard no-knock, middle of the night stuff.
Now, the ones who actively defend themselves against what they see quite reasonably as an ambiguous threat - they get shot and killed. But they deserved it, because they proved how dangerous they were. People who don’t get by with nothing more than a scare.
This is an awesome plan to weed out the dangerous members of society - I’m all for it.
By the way, doesn’t it seem reasonable to run some sirens and flash the lights in conjunction with busting the door down?
If I wake up in the middle of the night to my door being broken down, and I’ve done nothing wrong, I may come out shooting.
However, if I see lights flashing through the window, and a police siren on, it’s pretty clear what’s going on and I’d stand down.
This wouldn’t necesarily tip people off early - this could be done at the same time the door is being broken down. Seems like it might prevent some of these incidents.
You’re also the guy I found in my kitchen at 4 AM looking through my cabinets.
And the guy who lost the brakes on his police car chasing me a half a block, thinking I was speeding (I had actually braked at the other side of the hill), swerved to avoid me, wound up embedded in someone else’s side yard, then wrote me as many tickets as you could.
You’re the guy who walked into a place that reported a theft and accused the guy behind the kitchen counter of stealing the item, through body language and directed language. The guy behind the kitchen counter was the director of the facility. He wasn’t in the state at the time of the theft.
And you’re the guy who set up a roadblock and insisted people walking past show you ID to even be on the street.
You’re the guy who funds his police department by setting up speed traps on the interstate, on the one mile of road you control.
Sucks to be you, mister generic policeman.
Personally, I blame speeding tickets as a revenue source for most of the issues between policemen and citizens these days.
I’m sorry these things happened to you, but you can’t blame all cops for the actions of a few bad ones. There are bad people in every profession: doctors, lawyers, teachers . . .
Prejudice is prejudice. A guy who is robbed on one occasion by a black teenager and then gets into a fight with another would be considered to be a real asshole if he used these examples as “evidence” that all blacks are bad people and shouldn’t be trusted. Why is similar logic okay if it’s used on a profession instead of a race?
You’re the
It’s automatic for the cops to think a theft may have been an “inside job” because a vast number of them actually are. When my sister was robbed at gunpoint at her workplace, she was immediately taken in for an interrogation which lasted hours and asked to submit to a polygraph. Even if the guy was out of state he could have known the person who did it or even have been involved in the planning with the idea of being out of town in order to give himself an alabi.
Are you certain that this was a decision made by the individual officer? Could it be that perhaps he had been ordered to do these things by his superior?
Yeah, it does. They get blamed for things that aren’t really their fault.
Actually, this pissed me off more. I’m going to look at it and think about some replies.
Why? Me, I think speeding tickets started it. Any time a cop is on the road, he can pull you over for no reason whatsoever except for following the speed of traffic. So just seeing a cop makes everyone upset and tense.
[/quote]
You accuse me of coddling juveniles, until I catch your kid doing something wrong.
[quote]
Bullshit to both sides of the sentence. Who the hell thinks this?
Hah! Okay, it’s an old stereotype, but does anyone think this? Hell, I get a half hour lunch and no coffee breaks, myself. Big deal. What does this have to do with being a cop?
“HELP! I’M BEING ROBBED!” Emergency services personnel do have that risk. But so do I as an IT person. I eat at my desk, when I’m at my desk, and I usually have the mouse or phone in a hand. Again, poor man. My heart bleeds.
Well, did you do a damn thing about the guy who cut you off in traffic? Ooh, or how about the guy last week who tried to merge into me by driving down the shoulder… and I didn’t let him in. The cop drove up behind him, lectured him, and let him off. Two minutes later, he caught up to me and threw something into my door hard enough to chip the paint. C’est la vie. You’re picking on everyone. It makes all life an adversarial contest between the police and the citizen. Is that good for anyone?
Hell, I got tickets I deserved. And ones I didn’t. And ones I should have been ticketed for but there was no cop around. Big effing deal. You’re making someone pay you over a day’s wages (80 bucks for alternate side, 300 for speeding, plus points, minimum. More if you fight it.) Why the hell shouldn’t they bitch?
And the guy I saw turn his lights on to get into the Dunkin Doughtnuts parking lot on Jamaica Ave? How bout the one who started driving on the sidewalk to get past a block of traffic without lights? How bout the police commish a few years back who was using his lights and siren just to get to work?
Well, it’s pretty much part of the job if someone hits you. It’s part of my job to get cut on metal, shocked with electricity, and crawl through nasty-ass holes. And if you keep hitting someone when they’re down, that strikes me as pretty brutal. But hell, you expect violence of any kind to not wind up with protests? Sucks to be you, mister. Welcome to the world outside.
What the hell is this about? Old ladies telling the cops they should arrest those hooligan boys? Or is it about people filing complaints? Welcome to the world, I get the same thing in my job. I bet doctors and dentists get the same.
And you use language to me that would assure that I would turn and walk away from anyone else, but you expect me to stand there and take your verbal abuse. (Once, a cop decided I didn’t pull over for him… no, he didn’t have his lights on… so he flipped his lights and siren on, I pulled over, and he yelled at me for two minutes. The thing is, he did it from inside his car, next to mine, on the middle of the Williamsburg Bridge, blocking two of the three lanes of a very important bridge.)
Kitty Genovese. Never again. We get involved. I’ve devoted my whole life to helping people get out of a career of addiction and crime.
Got to love the HELP (Highway Emergency Local Patrol?) trucks, but Mr. Standard Cop won’t even give me a jump on the highway. And I’m there pitching in for the lost kid, and I don’t get the overtime pay for it.
See, part of the problem here is that you put yourself on one side of a fence, and me on another. You’re a citizen, just like me. You’ve got a job, and you do it, but it doesn’t make you better than me. I get bitches just like you, about the way I do my job, especially when it’s not my fault. And the one thing I’m sure of, Mr. Officer? If my property, my family, and maybe my life ever depends on you? I’ll never get my property back, my family lives too far away for you ever to be of assistance, an if it’s my life in danger, well, I’m going to have to try to take care of myself, because it might be you putting my own damn life in danger.
I don’t hate cops. I respect them as a whole. My blood brother who I grew up with is a cop. What I hate is cop attitude, and the adversarial relationship people have with them. What I hate even more is that, since police face that relationship every day, when they come face to face with a law abiding citizen, they bring that adversarial relationship with them, because they can’t trust anyone.
And it’s a reasonable response to the stresses of their job.
I’m not saying it isn’t. But what I am saying is that it isn’t good, for them, or for the public as a whole. And I don’t see much of a way to fix it.
I do hate lazy cops. And I mean mentally lazy, not physically.
The cop I found in my kitchen, I still don’t understand, though. He was a parole officer for some guy three streets down, and my door was unlocked but closed and around the side of a house, not visible from the street. I can’t prove it was him, because I was still mostly asleep and didn’t think to get his badge number before he asked me what I was doing, if there was anyone else in the house, and left. But I’m reasonably sure, even if he won’t admit it. I’m sure he got a severe talking to, but man, that could have gotten ugly, cause he was plainclothes, just wearing his badge around his neck.
Note: With my glasses prescription… and I don’t put em on before I take my shower… it looks just like a big blur.
Yeah, there are, and the bad interactions are the ones people remember. Police and non-police side, both.
Oh, sure. Scene: Five or seven people in a cafeteria. One guy behind the counter making a sandwich. One large policeman, body language… assertive. “If anybody” Turns to look behind the counter, making sure to catch the man in the eyes, turns back. “Were to return the computer, say, tomorrow” Turns, stares again. “Then I’m sure all the charges would be dropped.” What he didn’t know was that the guy behind the counter was the one who made the original complaint, he was met at the door by someone else. He also, by the way, barged into the facility unescorted, which is a major no-no, as it’s a drug treatment facility. It was really bizarre, and it wasn’t me, he happened to fixate on the guy behind the counter and directed everything he had to say directly at him. I have no idea why.
Oh, hell yeah. I’m talking about that speed trap town.
I’m not saying, in half of these, it’s the specific officer’s fault. I’m pointing at a serious divide between police and non-police. I don’t exactly know how to solve it, except possibly by better community policing. Course, communities are bigger and less communicative these days.
Both sides. Sucks.
All in all, it is remarkable how many average Americans are afraid of, or who do not like the police. Remember when the police were Sergeant Joe Friday? Remember when your Mom told you to find a policeman if you got lost?
We used to like policemen. It took a lot to turn the country away from that. Shame.
I didn’t write it, and I said that there were some things about it with which I did not agree.
Well, as my mama used to say, if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it, too? Everyone else may be breaking the law, but if you’re the one who’s caught for it, it doesn’t provide an affirmative defense. “Well, everyone else was rioting, too!” doesn’t help looters when they’re facing charges.
Why would you get all “upset and tense” when you’re called to be accountable for your actions? I’ve been caught speeding a couple of times myself. My response was a sheepish grin and, “Yep, you got me.”
Lots of people. About a year ago, there was an “evil cop” thread on here in which a woman railed about her daughter being charged unfairly (in her opinion) with drunk driving after an auto accident. She had a hundred excuses for why the tests were wrong and that the cops had “tricked” her innocent daughter who had only had a single glass of wine hours ago. When I responded with the facts which refuted all of the complaints she had, she simply stopped posting about it. I imagine she went on to continue to tell that story to her sympathetic friends, though.
I’ve seen it in my own family. I had a cousin who was a druggie. His mom bailed him out of trouble every time he was caught driving while intoxicated and she had a hundred excuses why he was actually innocent. The tests were done improperly, the cops were lying, they had planted evidence . . . But by God when her business was robbed, she was nagging the police day and night to arrest the kid down the road who she “knew” had done it even though there wasn’t enough evidence of his involvement. She was actually critical of that kid’s mother for defending her son in the same way she defended her own.
I’ve seen a lot of complaints about this, actually, which is why the author probably included it. On the boards where the letter was posted, there had been a lot of nasty comments made about seeing the cops in the donut shop while crime was happening down the street.
And it’s the cop’s fault that the asshole damaged your car? What did you expect him to do? Arrest the guy? Perhaps when the officer spoke to him, the guy was apologetic and self-depreciating. “Aw, gee, officer. I didn’t even see him. I’m terribly sorry.” I’ve cut people off myself when I wasn’t paying sufficient attention. Things like that happen, and yes, cops let people off with a warning all the time. What happened later is not the cop’s fault.
“Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.” When I’m speeding, I know it. I know if I get pulled over, I’ll have to pay a ticket. Sometimes, I’m in such a rush I figure it’s worth the risk. Other times, I realize that it’s not, so I slow down. If people can’t afford the penalty, maybe they should think about it before they break the law.
Speeding kills. It’s something that should be enforced with stiff penalties because maybe they make people stop and think before driving like maniacs.
What do you expect me to say to this? “Oh, gee, he came up with three more examples of cops doing what they shouldn’t. Maybe he’s right. All cops are bad people!”
It’s just like with what I said about racial prejudice in my previous post. I could go down to the prison where my Hubby works and point to 1,300 black inmates and use them as “proof” that all black people are criminals. (After all, there are more black people in there than white people.)
Again, I don’t know the author’s intent, but I’ve seen examples in my own life. “My car was stolen, and they didn’t even check it for fingerprints!” or “My house was broken into and they didn’t check for fingerprints even thought I know the criminals touched this or that!” They use this as an example of cops “not doing their jobs” even though they don’t understand how fingerprinting works.
I’ve also seen examples of where citizens bring in “evidence” and then are outraged when the cops don’t accept it and use it in criminal prosecution. They, again, use it as an example of cops not doing their jobs but they don’t understand the rules of chain-of-custody or the procedures for gathering evidence.
Again, just because you have an example of a cop lecturing you does not mean that all cops are bad.
Hubby’s not a cop, but he experiences this in corrections. The officers have to listen to vile, abusive language, but are forbidden from responding in kind. If attacked, they have to be careful to restrain the inmate without hurting him even though they may be injured themselves. Yes, it is all “part of the job” but they’re subject to an undue level of criticism.
I’m not doing it. I just re-posted a letter written by someone else. I’m not a cop, nor is anyone in my family.