I’ve got a band, and if we want to gig, we really need to put together a PA system. Thing is, aside from vague notions of what we need, I really don’t know what equipment we should get.
I figure we need an amp, maybe two floor monitors, two speakers (with stands), a mixer, perhaps compressors/reverb/other nifty effects we might want, and all associated cables, mics, and mic stands.
Does that sound about right? What would you suggest for specific products? What size speakers will we really need to play in clubs, as well as possible outdoor venues? As far as the mixer goes, how many channels is going to be too small, and what will be overkill (5 piece band, with 3 vocalists, two guitars, keys, bass, and drums)? Are we going to want/need to mic our drums? We’re going to want sends to the speakers, and a seperate mix to the monitors, will we need another bus for anything else?
So, basically, give me your recommendations. I’m an open book, and it looks like we might have a pretty decent budget for this.
Buy nothing. Hire your PAs because bands are less stable than marriages. The “band” should own nothing. PAs rent for nothing compared to their cost. If it breaks it isn’t your problem. Listen to local acts and when you hear a PA you like ask the sound guy where they rented it (if they are smart they did).
I managed a band and did live sound for several bands for some years. None of the bands owned a PA and I had several PA owners I could call on whose gear I liked. If you support someone else (like a name band) they provide the PA - you just provide a roadie to lug it in.
A few weeks ago I offered advice to a Southern Indian classical music group who did have their own PA which was a combined amp/mixer but only produced 300 watts. Perfect for their purposes but hardly rock ‘n’ roll.
With your setup you need 15 microphones alone (I would use 17) because you will need to mike every drum and instrument. If you do buy your own gear check out the new Behringer Microphones 3 pack, they are stupidly cheap for the standard they achieve.
The biggest problem with owning a PA is that they are not very scaleable. If you go from little party gigs to big halls you need entirely different gear.
It is really easy to get lots of information “in the field” so to speak. Go to local live gigs and just before the break buy the sound engineer a beer. When the band goes off stage and he/she puts on a CD give them the beer and say “That’s a really great sound your getting. Most mixes in here sound like mud.” You should then be able to ask any questions you like.
Vocal mikes: Shure SM58s indestructable. Also OK for almost everything else.
Kick-drum mike AKG D12 used to be the one. I may be behind the times here.
FX: just reverb. You do not want compression. - that said aural-exciter type devices work well with PAs.
How loud are you? How big are the venues?
Unless you’re going for something upwards of a kilowatt you won’t want to mike the drums, except for the kick-drum and then only if you’ve got separate bass-bins. Maybe the snare too but only to add reverb.
Unless you get self powered monitors (not reccomended) you will need another amp for them (you need an amp channel for each wedge so you can send a different mix to each). Unless you are very disciplined about volume you’ll want at least 150 Watts for each wedge. And how do you figure two wedges for five members?
Very basic setup at least six channels allowing for:
Kick-drum,
vocals * 3
Bass (probably DI-ed) the bass player’s amp probably has a DI socket.
Keyboards (keyboard amps can’t usually compete with guitars on their own) possible more than a couple of channels if the keyboard player a) wants stereo b) hasn’t got his own mixer.
A separate prefade send for each monitor mix
A couple of FX (post fade) sends, for say: straight reverb for vocals and gated reverb for snare
If you plan to put more than that through the rig you’ll have to have someone drive it. There’s more to setting up a PA than sticking a mike in front of everything and pushing up the faders.
And for outdoors you’ll need a lot more power than for indoors.
don’t ask offers great advice re: don’t buy it as a band. Either rent, or if one of you can afford to buy it, that have that person buy it (if you want to be cute, calculate the amount each member would have to chip in for a few rentals and have them pay the buyer that amount - in other words, everybody pays for the first few gigs and after that it is free to them…)
Both don’t ask and small clanger offer good advice regarding size. A lot depends on the size of the venue you plan to play - if it is a bar or club with, say a 100 - 150 person capacity, then 400 watts or so should be plenty.
On average (in my experience with my bands and many others I have seen), a starter band will use an 8 channel powered board pushing 300 - 450 watts, with each channel having reverb and eq. You would then need a couple of speaker towers and 3 - 4 monitor wedges. Beyond that, it starts getting complicated. Plan to have a channel for each singer, the keyboards and maybe the kick drum. Beyond that, add other things (e.g., other drums, a guitar amp, etc.) only if there’s room and you’re not pushing the system…
Good advice re: gaffer’s (duct) tape - buy it by the box and tape everything down. Also re: Shure mic’s - solid and dependable.
But having read don’t ask’s post. And the growing list of requirements in my post I agree. Hire it in.
I was assuming the situation wherever you are(?) is rather different to round here. Here you just hire a rig and sound guy for the night, and there are loads of outfits that do this. They transport the rig, put it up, mix the gig, break down the rig and take it away. All for a stupidly low price considering the cost of the gear.
Trust me, I did this for years (too long). We only started making money when we switched from bands to raves.
In my old band, the guitarist bought the PA through his company somehow. When the band broke up he sold it off.
95% of the time it was used for rehearsal and the mixer and effects did double duty as recording gear.
Once in a while we’d use it for a gig.
Most clubs have a PA and a soundman so you just need to bring your instruments and learn how to kill time without getting into too much trouble.
If I remember correctly we had:
a Samson 16 channel mixer (I wasn’t terribly enthused about this piece of gear)
an EV 300 watts/side head for the mains
a QSC 150 watts.side for the monitors
EV mains (the smallish ones you put up on stands)
Yamaha monitors
a 16 channel snake
assorted shure/akg/EV mics
Lexicon Reverbs
Compressor (various brands FMR, Alesis, Symetrix)
Rane Spectrum Analyzer
2 Rane stereo Graphic EQs (one for the mains one for the monitors)
A CD player (walkman or otherwise) for tunes
Road cases for everything
For most gigs I’d just bring my little Mackie mixer instead of the Samson since we were just putting vocals through the PA, or maybe vocals and some mics on the drums for a little extra oomph.
don’t ask has the best advice though, especially for a band as big as yours. You’re going to need someone out front riding herd on all those vocalists! The above makes a nice rehearsal PA, of course.
Thanks for the advice so far everyone. I definitely hear the argument about renting gear… it’d be nice to not have to deal with that though. Also, I do have to admit that we’re in a situation (well, one guy in the band is anyway) where we really do have a bit of cash to throw around, and don’t mind perhaps buying some stuff we don’t realy need.
As far as owning stuff ‘as a band’, it’d mainly be one or two of us. And, since we all were good friends before the band (and the dynamics are such that we will continue to be if/when we call it quits), ownership isn’t a huge issue here.
Part of the inspiration for doing this now is we’ve got a situation where we’re playing for a rock musical, and we have some definite sound issues as far as us hearing the singers. I’ve got some good mics to mic the stage, but no PA/monitors to get the sound down to where the band is. And, since the show runs for a week, it seems like renting equipment for that long would just be throwing away a lot of cash.
Get more specific about your rock musical - venue size, audience size, nature of the venue and you can get more advice.
If I was managing you guys I’d be suggesting that you piss your money away on products from Line6 who are producing amazing gear. Get everyone a POD, buy the guitarists a VARIAX. You can get them cheap on Ebay now but in a few years they will rule the industry.
Hm… ok. Venue: large chappel (traditional cross shape with the head of the building housing a very large stage). The place can seat almost 1000, I don’t think we’d ever see more than 500 in it for this, if that.
It’s incrediably live, with huge huge ceilings. A big part of the issue is that a lot of sound from the stage gets sucked right up to the ceiling. Also, above the first, oh, maybe 10 rows of seats is a large dome, and any noise that occurs at the edge of the dome can be heard perfectly clearly at the opposite position underneath the dome.
The building is very long as well, so getting a crisp sound out to the back is very challenging.
Oh, and the band is on the floor off to one side of the stage.
I’ll be honest here. The one structure most often poorly served by sound systems is a decent sized church. Even among sound contractors churches are a specialist field. I have heard systems in churches that make vocals less intelligible than if no sound system was used. It’s pretty easy to talk in general terms about a PA for a bar or hall but I wouldn’t hazard a guess, sight unseen, for a church. Here is a sample of what you can face.
Are you supplying sound for the whole musical or just for the band? Big diff. Anyway, my suggestion, as always, is: Get some in-ear monitors. Cost is about the same as for good floor monitors w/power, but a) you’ll get a better sound in your ear and b) you won’t lose your hearing as fast.
Clubs, the church and outdoors are such different venues that you’re simply not going to find a single system that will work for all of them. For the church, you might want to consider several small (1-15" + horn, or even smaller), powered speakers that you can put up on a stand in several places in the room. That will give you better coverage than a big stack up front.
Also, it matters where you are. If you’re in a major metropolitan area, there are probably competitive sound companies that will drive the price of rental down. If you’re out in the styx (:)) you’ll be paying a lot for OK sound (or lousy sound). Buying your own (and maybe renting it out to make back some of the purchase price) might be your best option.
Anecdote: When I was playing “Jesus Christ Superstar” back in the…well, a long time ago, we played in a church much as you describe. The floor was marble, the pews were polished wood and the walls were mostly glass. That place echoed for about a week! Every song slowed down, because the echo of the kick drum off the back wall was so loud that we were all trying to slow down to stay “in time”–with the echo. Yikes!
If you’re going to be playing music for a long time, I would just buy the system. But the others are right in that if the band buys the system, you’re going to have issues to work out when you break up.
I have simple ~600 watt amp/mixer combo and two 15" fender speakers. We use it just for vocals and it is extremley loud for that. If you’re going to be putting bass drums, bass, and other instruments you’ll need a lot more power. I am really happy I bought the system I have now, and it’s perfect for my uses (and my bands). You can look at some PA package deals here.
Are you sure you need a monitor? It’s usually just a preference if the venue isn’t large. Then again, if your venue is a church that has a lot of reverbation, you would want them.
For mics, Shure 58 is probably the most popular but they are relatively expensive. I would try mid-priced mics first.