>cough<
I went to a “pure studio art school” for my degree and I STILL had to write coherent papers on literature in order to graduate. I don’t care what undergraduate degree you get, you’ll still be confronted with Reading In English and Writing Coherently About What You Read.
(I also had to take science and math classes, too - thanks for continuing the myth that artists aren’t required to do anything like that, it helps people view our degrees as somehow less “authentic” :mad: )
Here’s the deal for your boss.
Unfortunately, due to ethical concerns you are unable to write the his kid’s report.
However, your discussion has rekindled both your interest in writing, and in the very same exact subject the his kid is supposed to write about. Amazing coincidence, but there you have it.
So you’ve decided to write a book. You’ll start by writing a summary paper you can shop around to publishers, and you’d likr him to read it and give you commentary on it.
And you’d like him to invest in marketing the book idea, for an eventual share in the book profits. Photocopying, postage, that kind of stuff. You imangine a VERY large promational mailing.
Er, I’m running out of rationales. The point is, you can pretend you’re doing something else if what you’re really doing is too morally bothersome.
You say you’re looking for reasons not to do it. I don’t believe you. You’re not stupid enough not to get what’s wrong with doing it. I think you’re trying to decide how much wrong there is in it, to tip your personal ethical scale one way or another.
Boyo Jim, as the thread has grown long and convoluted, you have doubtlessly missed Post 89, in which the resolution of the situation was revealed. In short, I’ll be tutoring the kid as a few persons suggested upthread.
I’ll let slide that you’re sort of calling me a liar in the sentence I italicized; the thread topic puts my honesty in question; it was a reasonable accusatio, as was, I must admit, Anaamika’s bribery accusation. That said: I WAS looking for reasons not to do it. I’ve been a poster here for years; I’m sure I’ve participated in some plagiarism threads ere this; I could guess the likely reaction. But I was quite tempted by the opportunity to do it, and wanted to; who wouldn’t want the opportunty to be paid to do one of his favorite things for money? So I thought I’d run it by the Teeming Millions for reality check.
(I still disagree with the persons who opine that doing it would have been dangerous at work.)
Yes, I did miss post 89. Thanks.
I apologize for the suggestion you lied. I really wasn’t thinking of it in those terms myself, but re-reading it I can see that implication. Rather, I thought you were rationalizing.
S’alright. It’s not like you accused me of using my powers for good or something. For THAT slander I’d have to release alligators 'pon madison.
Skald said
Does this “boss’s boss” have the ability to fire you? If so, that person was abusing his power to ask this of you; I don’t care how nice he is. Asking ANY “favor” of a person under your authority is abuse of power, even if the “favor” is not unethical. Because he has the power in the relationship, your ability to decline is impacted. So: dangerous, whether you think so or not.
If your family needs that loaf of bread to survive, then yes, steal that loaf of bread and risk being transported to Australia. Otherwise, no. It is wrong.
Bone up on your Machiavelli. I recommend The Prince.
Also, being as a substantial portion of your education is in history, check out the Byzantines. What a wacky, fun bunch they were.
Also recall Joe Stalin’s famous phrase: “Gratitude is the disease of dogs.”
Except, of course, that you don’t know Jim, and I do.
Okay, you guys are just a leetle bit paranoid for me. Jim is not Machiavelli or Stalin, any more than I am a super-villain hight Fabulous Creature. I’ve had bosses who would ask for personal favors one dared not refuse. I’ve also had bosses who would go out of the way to accommodate their employees’ personal lives and who never try to exploit their subordinates. Jim’s one of the latter.
One of those, and also unethical. Being “nice” is in no way related to whether or not someone is a bad person.
Oh, good grief. Is it remotely comprehensible to the more tight-assed among you that people can disagree with ONE part of your value system without being overall bad people? Or, perhaps, have a moment of weakness? Or have some things more important to him than being ethical in every element?
I never cheated as an undergrad. My wife, my son’s sister, and my oldest niece are all about the kid’s age, and all in college themselves; I wouldn’t suggest that any of them plagiarize a paper in the same situation, but I can understand why Jim wanted to.
He sees his son having trouble in school, and he wants to help because he is, you know, a father. He sees that he’s worked hard to help his kid get an education, he sees a barrier being put up for what seems to him to be a stupid reason, so he went into “protector” mode. That does not mean he would embezzle from his company, cheat his customers, or take petty revenge on his subordinates. It just means that he is neither Jesus, Aslan, or Captain America.
I wouldn’t say Skald’s boss is a bad person solely because of this incident. He suggested doing a Bad Thing. Not a Really Bad Thing, not a Horrible Thing, but still nothing to make his momma proud. He also thought better of it, considering Skald’s advice, and the deed will not be done. Skald says the guy has redeeming qualities, and I have no evidence to support any other conclusion. Being me, I would think less of the boss after this incident, but at the same time, I realize we’ve all done things we probably should not have done.
I don’t presume to speak for Hilarity N. Suze, but I’ve got to jump in here.
Contrapuntal, you appear to see an ethical conflict between being a ghost writer and believing that writing someone else’s college papers is wrong. I’d like to address that because I’ve been there myself.
I used to do contract writing for a P.R. firm. Much of that work consisted of ghostwriting magazine articles for tech startup executives. Frequently, it was engineers with lousy grammar and writing skills (sometimes English was their second or third language) that had a really good subject to address. They’d outline what they wanted the article to say. I’d check out the submission guidelines for the target magazine and interview the exec to get all the details I needed, and then write the article. It would appear under the exec’s name in the magazine.
Is this the same thing as writing a paper for a college student? No. Because most writing in the real world is collaborative. I’ve written over 20 books. The front cover lists my name, a co-author in one case, and an illustrator in many cases. It does not list the editor, proofreader, copyeditor, peer reviewer(s), indexer (when I didn’t do it myself), cover designer, layout designer, or any of the other people involved in making it happen. The articles I wrote for the PR firm contained the ideas and concepts of the execs I wrote them for. I was just one of the behind-the-scenes people that made it happen.
In college, the purpose of the paper is to demonstrate the student’s grasp of the subject matter and to demonstrate the student’s ability to write a paper clearly articulating the subject matter. By writing a paper for the student, you’re defeating the purpose of the paper. By ghostwriting a book or magazine article, you’re enhancing the purpose of the book or article by making it clearer and easier to read.
So I respectfully suggest that you get off of Hilarity N. Suze’s back and stop trying to take the moral high ground where there isn’t any.
Exactly.
Which is why you are wrong about this…
Why?
Hilarity N. Suze did precisely what i quoted above—wrote papers for undergraduates to submit as part of their courses. Not only that, but did it for money, knowing that the specific purpose of the task was to help students succeed in courses without doing the work. Hilarity N. Suze knew the students were cheating, and was happy to screw over his/her colleagues in the university by writing papers for them to submit under their own name.
Sorry. I was unclear. My post was specifically about ghostwriting, which is what the statement I quoted was about.
Contrapuntal was saying that Hilarity N. Suze was inconsistent for saying that ghostwriting is okay but cheating on student essays isn’t. I was posting about that, and only that.
Maybe. What I really see, though, is someone willing to cut corners to save a buck. Because the most likely consequence of the son not writing this paper is winding up 3 liberal arts credits short of his degree requirement and needing to make that up in summer school, probably on dad’s dime.
Would you be willing to write a paper for any other students in his class?
If you knocked this paper out of the ballpark and this engineering student was given an undeserved A+ grade, you’ve taught him to disregard the rules and take shortcuts.
This is not something I’d allow either of my college-aged children to do. I’d be very disappointed if either of them accepted a paper written by you in order to avoid learning something for themselves.
Pinky
You may wish to read Post 89. I’ve spent the last few hours tutoring.
As I’ve gone 'round this topic a few times now, I am going to take your post as God telling me to leave the thread. Which is odd, because I don’t technically believe in him.
:: unsubscribing right after I hit the **submit reply **button ::
Good for you and good for him.
It’s cheating. Don’t do it. Period.