My cat and the Garden (or God has no right to be pissed)

Great Debates
1

There, that’s a sufficiently enigmatic thread title, although, to be fair, it’s my roommate’s cat. Now, to explain the title… today, my roommate’s cat jumped on the counter while I was making dinner. I promptly swatted her on the nose, said “Bad Kitty,” and then went about my cooking as she jumped down. I continued making my dinner, and then got to thinking while eating.

Did I have any right to smack the cat’s nose? (Let me clarify–I just tapped it, but she really hates that–I didn’t “hurt” her in any sense of the word.) From my perspective, I didn’t want her on the counter. She could get sick if she eats raw chicken, she’ll get hair on everything, and I don’t care much for the idea of her litter-scratching paws on my clean counter. I’ve thwapped her nose before while she was on the counter, enough times so that it’s not unreasonable to think that she associates “counter” with “nose-thwappin’.”

From her perspective–Meow. Loosely translated, this means “I haven’t been on the counter in the past few hours, and I smell chicken, so what the hell.” She understands nothing about the danger of raw chicken, the ubiquituousness of her white fur, and the vileness of her shit-scooping paws. The only consequence she sees, and this is up for debate, is the thwapping. The rest is instinct.

I’m going to make the following analogy–> Adam&Eve:God::cat:Me (wow, I compared myself to God–sweet). God tells Adam and Eve, “Relax, chill out, enjoy Paradise, but don’t eat from that Tree, because it’s EVIL and WRONG.” Quix tells Cat, “Explore the rest of the house, do whatever, but don’t get on the Counter, because it’s EVIL and WRONG.” I contend that these situations are quite similar, because neither Cat nor A&E have any idea what the hell EVIL and WRONG mean. How could A&E, when the very “power” they gained by munching the apples (or quinces, or whatever) was the ability to discern GOOD from EVIL, RIGHT from WRONG?

Now, I realize that God spoke to Adam and Eve in a language they presumably understood. I spoke English to my cat, which is even sillier than it seems, because she’s deaf. But I also spoke to her non-verbally, and I gave her many warnings. God, obviously less magnanimous than me :slight_smile: only gave the one warning.

So, in a nutshell, when I tell my cat (verbally and non-verbally), “Don’t get on the counter,” I shouldn’t expect her to respond rationally. I should not get pissed when she jumps on the counter, and I definitely shouldn’t have the right to throw her out into the elements. And yet when God tells A&E to, in a manner of speaking, not get on the counter, He does everything I didn’t do: He expects them to respond rationally (which, as I’ve already established, they couldn’t), He gets pissed, and He throws them out into the Harsh World.

Comments?
Quix

2

Not at all!

In fact, a tap on the nose is Mama Cat speak for NO! or so I’ve heard.

For what it’s worth-I do the same to Misty-but she NEVER LISTENS!!!

looks at Misty-yes, I mean YOU, little girl!

3

Actually, you’re leaving out part of the equation. The counter with raw chicken on it is Eden. Trust me, I have four cats, I know. The kitchen counter covered in food is Paradise.

So you expelled your cat from Eden. The only difference is, cats are a lot more stubborn than humans. So your cat just jumps right back into Eden.

4

My comment is that I’m appalled, not that you smacked the cat, but that you smacked it in the FACE. Nothing is more pathetic than a cat who recoils, ears flattened, when you try to pet it. This is what you’re training it into.

If you must use corporal punishment on your cat, please smack it on the hindquarters.

5

I agree with your argument entirely, quixotic. I’ve thought of this often, myself, only in my mind I’ve always envisioned toddler+cake-on-table instead of cat+chicken-on-counter.

I could never figure out why God was so furious with A&E. He knew they were going to do it, unless he’s not really omniscient. How can you be angry when your creation behaves exactly how you knew it would?

Also, it seems to me that the fruit must have been really, really tempting because they wasted no time at all in digging into it. If Adam and Eve were both perfect, they must have had perfect reproductive systems, so Eve would have conceived within a matter of weeks. However, all of her kids were conceived and born after they were thrown out of Eden, so earthly paradise apparently lasted as long as the average honeymoon.

Of course, there’s also the serpent factor, but an omniscient god would have known all about that beforehand, too.

A person wouldn’t tempt a child (or a cat) with an off-limits object with the foreknowledge that the child/cat will be tempted. You certainly wouldn’t place a loaded gun on a table (‘no, no!’ you’d say helpfully) and leave the room if you absolutely knew the child would ignore your warning, take the gun, and shoot himself. If you do and the inevitable happens, you’d have to blame yourself, not the kid.

6

I’ll respond within the context of the Biblical story, regardless of its being only an allegory (a whole ‘nother debate, I know). God wasn’t furious, nor is He furious at folks’ disobedience now. He is just. He set out some rules, A&E were tempted and gave in to it and disobeyed him, and He punished them accordingly. We have to assume that they were a step above animals like your cat and could understand, and remember from one moment to the next, that they should obey God.

7

[shameless hijack]

So WHY are quince plants so hard to find??? WHY???

[/shameless hijack]

Sorry. You may proceed.

8

Well, I personally feel that nothing is more worthless than a cat, period, but that’s just my opinion. If your hypothesis is correct, and I’m training it into recoiling from being touched (which she isn’t, BTW), then why is my “stay away from the counter” training so ineffective? I also find it interesting that you feel a smack on the ass, as it were, is OK, but a face tap isn’t. It’s interesting because it shows that you really don’t care how the cat feels; you just care that you can still pet the damn thing. If a butt smack and a nose tap are both unpleasant for the cat, why is one OK but the other is “appalling”? Or, to put it another way entirely–lighten up.

But I didn’t mean for this thread to be about cats; I meant it to be about the relationship between Adam&Eve and God. Perhaps I should have gone with Holly’s example of toddler and cake. No matter how well behaved a child is, if you leave him alone with his favorite dessert for more than 2 minutes, that dessert will be eaten, admonishments to the contrary be damned. But, as she eloquently pointed out, it’s MY fault for leaving the cake there!

Well, let’s look at Genesis 2:16-17

If it’s called “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” this seems to imply that Adam&Even didn’t already have this knowledge. This assertion is reinforced in Genesis 3:22 (emphasis added)

So we can assume that they were a step above a cat all we want, and that they remember that they should obey God… but they had no understanding of the consequences before they ate the fruit. Holly’s toddler wouldn’t understand her if she said, “Eat that cake, and you’ll get a stomachache.” A&E similarly didn’t understand what God meant when He said “…[or] you will surely die.” I can just picture them, standing there, smiling and nodding, not understanding a word He said.

**
Awesome, so I can throw the cat out of the house if she jumps on the counter again. After all, it’s not mean; it’s just. I guess God’s a really big fan of the old adage, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

As a final point, I know that kids really, really obey when parents say, “You can do ANYTHING you want while we’re gone, but don’t go in the SPECIAL closet.” Smirk.

Quix

9

"Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
quixotic78 said

But somehow they understood the serpent just fine when he said “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” If they understand “not die” maybe they understand “die” as well.

quixotic78 said

What part of “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat” are they supposed to be ignorant of?

Luckily this is all an allegory. :slight_smile:

10

No, like I said, a TAP on the nose-just a little tap-just as if you were typing, or something-is just the way a cat knows you are saying, “No, do not do that.”

A smack on the butt will only make them pissed off and defensive. A light tap on the nose-not enough to hurt-just a tweak-communicates displeasure.

11

How could God have really expected A&E to not eat the fruit? They had not knowledge of good and evil!. He said, “Don’t do this, it’s evil.” But A&E still had no concept at that point of what evil was. How could they even comprehend what they were doing, or what they were warned about, before eating from The Tree?
Either A&E already understood the concept of good and evil, or God purposely set them up to fail.

12

Pepperlandgirl summed it up quite nicely. And gigi, maybe you’re right, maybe they did know what “die” meant (even though I was always told there was no death in the Garden… whatever). But I contend that Adam and Eve were totally amoral (not immoral), that they had no sense of morality. So, to them, ignoring God is not a “wrong” act or even a bad idea; it carries the same validity as listening to God. Either way, it doesn’t matter. Now, the fact that God knew about Adam and Eve’s amorality, and yet still expected them to listen, it suggests two options: either (a) He’s a rude, even cruel prick, or (b) He isn’t omniscient.

As you (gigi) said, it’s all allegorical anyways, so it isn’t really that important. I agree with you. I would like to hear from someone who doesn’t agree with us, and thinks that there really was a Garden of Eden, really was an Adam and Eve, really was a talking snake, etc. I’d like to hear how they resolve the “He’s either cruel or stupid” dilemma. Although I suspect I’d be disappointed, and they would pick © God works in mysterious ways. Sigh.

Quix

P.S. Re: the nose tapping, yes, it is a very light tap (exactly like typing). To a cat, it is apparently as pleasant as a thumb in the eye socket to a person. You don’t need to JAB the thumb in there; it’s going to be uncomfortable even if you lightly touch.

13

If I may be so bold as to suggest:

A spray bottle filled with water.

When kitty jumps on the counter, or the kitchen table, or climbs the pagan Christmas tree, just a squirt or two from the spray bottle gives absolutely no pain (if my two older sisters were correct when I yelled “Owwh” after they used water pistols on me.)

RE: Adam & Eve and Eden
There is no such thing as original sin, because lo, the the sins of the father are not visited upon the children.

14

A somewhat related point that I saw on some website that I can’t remeber offhand.
God’s omnipotent, omnipresent, etc, right?
So He knew exactly what was happening in the Garden all the time. Therefore He knew that the serpent was tempting them, and that they were about to eat from the Tree.
But even though He didn’t want this to happen He didn’t intervene at all. He then pretends to know nothing about it when He comes along later until He interrogates them, and throws them out.
A somewhat strange way to act, even ignoring His knowledge of the future, but I’d never thought of it that way before.

15

For the OP to be a closer analogy, the very first time the cat ever jumped on the counter, quixotic78 should have taken the cat and thrown it out into the street where it and it’s children and it’s children’s children would have to fend for themselves

pretty much describes the life of an abandoned housecat.

That’s what bugs me about the Genesis story: the punishment didn’t even come close to fitting the crime. It also doesn’t make much sense. Per KJV:

So A&E were kicked out because God didn’t want 'em to be immortal and they’d proven that they couldn’t be trusted NOT to eat the Fruit. Fine. I’ve read C.S. Lewis’s The Magician’s Nephew. I understand why God didn’t want 'em to be immortal after eating the first Fruit.

Why didn’t he just uproot the other tree, rather than cursing them forever?

Fenris