My children's school principal: Go to hell and burn. Slowly.

The BBQ Pit
221

Because the question of Filmore blaming his victim was not up for debate. He did it. You called a spade a diamond and you can’t defend it. I wasn’t expecting a response from you. Certainly not an intelligent one. I have no problems with you calling me names because you are an idiot and I don’t respect the opinions of idiots.
Diosa has said many fine things in this thread. Yes she has. She has related two stories about stopping bullying, which I applaud her for doing that. Good job there. but when poster after poster told stories of how teachers they knew, would either look the other way or actually be a bully, she dismissed these stories as they can’t be true because all the teachers she knows are good teachers. I’m guessing she knows less than.001% of the nations teachers.

Then she put words into my mouth. Saying that I was advocating that the victims should just suck it up and deal. I pointed it out to her that she was wrong about this. She made no response. Not to say she confused me another poster or misunderstood my writings or showed where I actually said these things. She is like George W Bush and will not admit any mistake no matter how small. She seems to totally lack the ability to examine herself. Why should she? The teacher is always right.

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
Well, you could be a good person too: do something to help make the lives of kids better so they don’t suffer like you did. You obviously are clearly aware of how damaging bullying can be, so do something to help. Really, I’m not being a snarky asshole either- there are plenty of kids who need help and even if you only help make one life better, you’ve made a difference.
[/QUOTE]

Her continuing challenges to me, to help today’s kids, well, she is trying to insult me with that isn’t she. She is claiming she helps kids and I don’t help kids so she is better than me. I mean, “you could be a good person too”. She flat calls me a bad person. That is such a great way to persuade someone to join her crusade against bullying, which, btw, she has completely under control.

So, instead of discussing how she misinterpreted my posts and put words in my mouth, to constantly look at my faults, claiming her own sainthood, and then to top with the snark comment. Really, she does deserve credit for that. Oh yes, that is a credit to her for showing her own hypocrisy and confirming mine own, and many other posters, experience with teachers.

Generally, believe it or not, I’m actually a pretty happy person, till I read threads about bullying and the dumbass responses these threads always get.

222

Actually, I made no response because I had- and still have- no fucking clue what you’re talking about.

And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with advocating for kids and telling the world we need more good people involved. If you take that as some sort of insult. . . I dunno what to tell you.

223

<WAG hypothesis based on limited anecdotal evidence (only three cases)>

Some (not all, not most, but some) children/bullies/fucking assholes (pick your preferred term) actually need such an experience if there’s going to be any chance whatsoever of them quitting what they’re doing, because They. Don’t. Have. A. Fucking. Clue. Probably because their parents missed (or ignored) completely their task of teaching the children/bullies/fucking assholes (pick your preferred term) the meaning of the word “empathy”

</WAG hypothesis>

224

Hey, I don’t disagree with you- like I said way back a few pages ago, the first time I witnessed bullying, I jumped on it right there in class. This, no doubt, was because I had no formal teaching experience and had no idea what was right or wrong to do. Fast forward to now, I have witnessed many-a-time what appears to be the appropriate protocol. That said, I still don’t disagree with you that a swift kick in the balls (or ego, whichever) is the best way to stop that shit immediately. I employ both tactics, but I will admit that most of the time, I pull the kids aside privately and put the fear of God into them. What works best depends on the kid and all that after all, so its a judgment call a teacher has to make.

225

I can see why some kinds of correction should be administered privately. But when the crime is harassing and abusing another student, shoudln’t the admonishment be public, so that (a) the victim knows that it’s been dealt with and (b) other students know that it’s been dealt with and such behavior is absolutely unacceptable?

226

Like I said, I don’t necessarily disagree— but I suppose the logic is that you don’t want to be a bully yourself, right? Public humiliation, even if somewhat justified, sort of falls under that category, me thinks. It’s a fine, fine line.

227

I gotta agree that public correction seems to mean a whole lot more than private admonishments. Not that either path should be used exclusively, or that they can’t be combined. -I’m thinking specifically here of the correctional benefit, not necessarily the benefit to the victim. And public comeuppance is more meaningful if it’s done by peers…

Doesn’t seem to be an easy choice to be made on the spot by the teachers.

228

I think the way a lot of teachers see it (again, this is just discussing this stuff with my friends and such, I certainly don’t speak for all teachers) is that the goal is to create the smallest distraction for the class as possible. After all, if you let the bully/general douchebag fully disrupt the class for any duration of time by giving whatever idiocy they are partaking in all your attention, well, then they sort of win and if they really wanted attention, that behavior is reinforced.

Again: I’m totally down for immediate verbal beat down if that’s what is needed, but you definitely have to take each situation and the kids involved on its own. I’d say MOST kids who act up and are douches during class are doing it for attention, so if you privately have a come to Jesus talk with them, they aren’t being rewarded for the asshattery.

229

OTOH, one of the most important aspect of justice is deterrence. Right or wrong?

230

Well, seeing as I’m a high school debate coach and I spend hours a week discussing justice and what it means with my students. . . I’m going to say it depends on how you’re defining justice. For me, justice is fairness.

Let me ask you this: what would you have me do?

231

Ah, but that’s the thing–you’re not humiliating, you’re correcting. The humiliation comes entirely from the bully being ashamed of their own behavior–it’s something they’re doing to themself, not something you’re doing to them.

232

To be frank, I don’t know. As you say, it all depends on the situation.

But this I know: All my children know for sure that Dad will ream them a new asshole if they’re ever caught doing shit like this. But Dad is also pretty anal on teaching the children empathy. I guess it’s roughly 80% empathy lessons and 20% “OMG, he’ll ream me a new asshole”. And so far, I’ve seen none of that shit by my kids. Not that they haven’t stepped out on that particular path¹, but to my best knowledge there’s been only one step. Followed by a thorough reaming by Dad and the children doing a 180° turn.

¹ I’m not that naïve about my own children

233

Again, I don’t disagree in some cases. But it’s also important to remember that I’m supposed to be the safe one for everybody- I’m the one they all can trust not to hurt them or humiliate them, I’m the one they can talk to. Now, I realize I certainly wont be that for everybody, but that doesn’t mean I wont try. So, like I said, I take it on a case by case basis-- there are certainly times where I’ve done the correction in front of everybody, but there are also times where I need to have a heart to heart privately with the kid.

Plus, the idea that I’d be using the bully to set an example to the other kids isn’t necessarily one I’m totally comfortable with. I get it- it needs to be done, but . . . I dunno, using a child as an means to an end is a little shitty in my book. Though I can’t say that it doesn’t need to happen sometimes. Like I keep saying, there’s a fine line and it’s a tough judgment call to make.

My debate team has 70 kids on it this year and I’ve employed both tactics discussed to keep everybody in line (lest I get Lord of the Flies’ed, as I like to say). Am I perfect? Absolutely not. But what I will tell you is that the attitude on my team is far different than most of the others we encounter. Sure, some kids get along better than others, but everybody knows that we’re a family and they all stick up for each other- from the popular kid to the lil nerd (who am I kidding? It’s the debate team, they’re all nerds :D). I’m sure someone will come in and accuse me of be delusional, but I’ve had other coaches comment on how freaking well my kids all kid along.

I suppose my point is that there isn’t one concrete black or white answer how to handle things, but I do know that’s it’s terribly unfair to accuse most teachers of being sociopaths. I’m glad that has more or less stopped in this thread. I just want to reemphasize though: if there’s one thing you should teach your kids, it’s to find someone on campus they can trust and talk to openly. If they’ve got that and I know what’s going on with them, I will go to bat for them every single time. I can’t know if I don’t know though.

234

Sorry, that doesn’t fly with me. It’s meaningless. To me, it’s almost up there with “I’ll pray for you”

IMO “justice”, as applied by society on criminal acts (and bullying on this level is a criminal and morally repugnant act), is about deterrence and revenge and only that. Deterrence on a general level to deter first-time offenders, deterrence on a personal level to deter repeat offenders and revenge by society to placate the victims of the crime and thus prevent revenge by private persons.

</hijack>

235

Since when is justice about revenge? The point of justice, in the sense of the justice system we have in the U.S., is that it *isn’t *about revenge.

236

It’s not a hijack at all, totally pertinent to the discussion, imho. :slight_smile:

I suppose my response to that is the second paragraph of my reply right before yours.

To your point about justice. . . again, as a debate coach who talks about what justice is all the damned time (hell, my whole senior seminar class in college was about this), I’m not sure that your definition is comprehensive enough to really encompass what justice totally is. No doubt, what you’re saying is part of it, but there’s definitely a moral decision that comes into play here-- that’s the deontological point I’m making here, I guess.

237

So you’ve read that one? Good. That book should be required reading (including an essay assignment) every term for everyone studying to become a teacher. With some luck a few of the naïve do-gooders would get a couple of rather healthy ideas about what kind of goodness we can find in every child

238

Yeah, I’m pretty sure in California it’s required reading for high school students. But please don’t take a little joke I make about my 70 kids turning against me and putting my head on a pike literally. Also, I’m really not sure why you appear to be getting an attitude with me, but maybe I’m applying a tone to what you’re saying that isn’t there. I’m all for a healthy discussion, but there’s no need for the vitriol that’s flying in this thread— I’m doing my best to explain my (what I think is pretty moderate) position as rationally as possible here.

239

If you really believe that, try suggesting rehabilitation without “punishment” for, say, child rape. We bleedin’ libruls hate to admit it, but “punishment” is (partly) institutionalized revenge. Which is a lot better for society than what the alternative (privatized revenge) is.

Yeah, I’m probably a bit of a cynic. Lost my belief in humankind more than thirty years ago, in school during my early teens

240

Explain this please.
Here is a bit more of my post that you quote a part of.

I thought it was clear in my post what I wrote was from the victims point of view, especially since I was replying to MeanOldLady’s claim that filmore wasn’t blaming the victim. (even though Filmore doesn’t’ even fight that any more)
So I’m responding to her and her defense of bullies and her claim that the victims of bullies have bad behavior patters that they should change. So I give a peek in to the mind of victim and that is what they feel is going on and why it is so difficult for a child to ‘just’ do what ever.

How the hell do you get that I’m telling the victims that they shouldn’t tell. I’m the one who said to the OP to involve the police.

How the fuck did you get that my attitude is the most dangerous in this thread so far?

Oh and I love how you say “but it isn’t necessarily the TRUTH.”

Does that mean that some kids are worthless pieces of shit who deserve bullying.

Of course you think your statement

is not a direct fucking insult. You flat out say I am not a good person. It is an insult. You insulted me. I’m not upset by the insult so much as your inability to admit that you were insulting me. You are the crazy one. (diosa voice) I’m not insulting. Who me? I’m a teacher! I help kids! I can’t do anything bad! [/dv]