“Appear” is probably the codeword. I’m not communicating in my native language. I don’t know you, so the only thing I get an attitude with is peoples’ statements in this thread, not anybody
Well, I read your posts to basically say over and over again that students can’t trust their teachers. Now, perhaps this isn’t how you meant it, but that’s certainly how it came across to me. If you didn’t mean it that way, my apologies. But if you did mean that kids can’t trust their teachers- then yes, that’s a tremendously dangerous position to take. Certainly, no person should just blindly trust anybody, but if there is one group on campus in a position to protect kids, it’s the teachers. As I’ve already conceeded, there are no doubt a few bad apples, since we are human after all-- but, by and large, the vast majority of teachers are good people there to help kids. Shit, why else would someone become a teacher? All the fame, money, and accolades? Teachers value education and if they are working with not college-aged students, it’s because they want to help children, too.
As I’ve made clear, bullying isn’t always as transparent as the victim thinks it is. I’m one person and just on my debate team I have to watch 70 different kids at once, so it’s certainly easy to miss the quiet, subtle stuff. Which is why it is SO IMPORTANT that students know they can talk to me and tell me what’s going on. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: I can’t know what I don’t know.
To the last thing: have you ever read the Allegory of the Cave? A little Socrates and Plato up in this bitch, as the kids say. There’s a difference between perceptions (truth) and reality (Truth). If you’ve taken a philosophy class ever, you’d realize I’m not discrediting the feelings or experiences of anybody, because that’s their reality.
Na, I directly responded to what you said to me. Am I to understand that you weren’t really calling me a good person, but being sarcastic? Gosh, that’s not very nice.
Alright, if I was reading a snarky tone to your post that wasn’t there, I’m sorry about that. I mean that sincerely.
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Hey, I was a bullied kid. I was bullied from about 4th grade until 8th. I was smart*, a bit socially awkward, overweight, insecure and had C cup boobs by the beginning of 7th grade (that got larger through 8th). I spent the majority of my school time miserable because of the non-stop mocking, yelling, and occasional physical violence**. I had serious depression issues for years on end because of this shit. I was suicidal a few times.
But you know what? I think you and others are being completely ridiculous in this thread. Yes, how I perceived things back then was reality for me (I mean, duh). And yes, my self-esteem and self-worth took horrific beatings, only further distorting reality. But, at 28 years old, I truly believe it’s important for the victim to at least try to put that shit behind them. No, I’m not saying it’s easy. No, I’m not saying it’s fun.
But if your (you=the victim) reality is the one that caused you absolutely horrific pain.. why wouldn’t you try to change those perceptions (in hindsight)? I’m not saying you’d say, “haha! I totally see how I was a douchecanoe and the bullies were TOTALLY JUSTIFIED!” What I’m saying is that kids can be real assholes (just like adults can be). But a lot of kids and adults who are not inherently assholes can do/participate in assholish things, often unintentionally or in ignorance. Does that excuse the actual assholish action? No, of course not. But it also doesn’t mean that the person as a whole is an irredeemable horror.
I’m sure that you personally have unintentionally done things that were either wrong, hurt someone’s feelings or that you have guilt about now. Everyone has; it’s part of being human. Story time!
I remember being 12 or 13 and walking with my grandma to the grocery store. I was so embarrassed because I was with my GRANDMA and we had A BAG LADY SHOPPING CART (the ones that fold up and you can walk with them to the store). How can she not see how humiliating this is?!?!?!?!?! I know that I had a snotty and hostile attitude with her in the store, convinced that everyone was looking at this stupid shopping cart and laughing at us.
16 years have passed since then. I look back on that time and cringe. My grandma never learned to drive, but she would walk over a mile and back to get her groceries, well into her late 70s. Her shopping cart let her be independent and not need to rely on someone else driving her to get her groceries. She had to put up with a snide and snotty granddaughter embarrassed to be around her, while she was walking with arthritis on an icky humid summer day to get her fucking groceries. How awful must that have been?
That’s the perspective I didn’t have as a teenager. I have it now. Does that mean it wasn’t rude of me to act that way? Not at all. Does it excuse it? No. But do I act like that anymore? Hell no. Have I grown into a caring human being? I’d like to think so. And I’m proud to take my grandma, now 87, to do errands or go to the dollar store. And if anyone gives any attitude because of her slow, cane-assisted shuffle or because she can’t jump out of the way of charging people, they gotta go through granddaughter bear. 
But I bet that 16 years ago, people who noticed my snotty attitude would bet I’d grow up to be some bitch who was thoughtless and rude to everyone.
If I could act in self-absorbed, rude or mean ways, but honestly still grow up and truly change and regret that behavior… why isn’t it possible that my bullies were similar? Is it possible that they were all truly monsters who knew they were torturing a classmate and have no regrets? Sure. But how does thinking of them that way benefit me? It doesn’t. All it does is reinforce my then-perceived reality and continue feelings of pain and anger.
I vastly prefer my outlook now. Sure, I may be giving the benefit of the doubt to some bullies who don’t deserve it. But… so what? The reality that I used to have was miserable, filled with hate, resentment and pain. For me personally, at least considering/assuming that jerkass bully kids actually were just self-absorbed, occasionally idiotic meanies who more likely than not have grown up to just be… Joe Average (not Joe Horrific-Sadist) or even Joe GreatHumanBeingWhoVolunteersForTheHomeless alters that old reality. And that new perception is to my benefit.
- hell, who am I kidding? I was BRILLIANT.
** and, not to sound like I’m decades behind my time, but I was a friggin’ girl and boys were the ones to shove or punch me. WTF?
But punishment isn’t the same as revenge, any more than “fine” means “ransom”. There’s entirely different motivations and intentions involved. When you punish one of your kids, you’re not doing it to satisfy yourself (in fact, it makes you feel pretty bad, I bet), you’re doing it to develop the child’s moral calculus. Criminal punishment assumes a moral calculus as codified by law and applies a cost to moral/ethical transgressions as legislated.
“Revenge” exacts pain & suffering without regard to the transgressor’s moral understanding, but only with regard to the satisfaction of the revenging entity. This is why those deemed mentally unfit to understand their transgression don’t stand criminal trial in the US -because it’s not institutionalized revenge.
Please provide three examples where what I posted says you can’t trust teachers in general. (over and over again means at least three)
Oh and they should come before you made that post, not our later discussions.
Does ‘over and over again’ really mean three? Huh, never heard that before. Anywho, I was basing my statement mostly off of post 200, in which you say:
Sure, you don’t directly say teachers, but you said nobody, which says to me that NOBODY cares or will do shit for you-- teachers and administrators included. So, there’s two times, I guess.
And a third, here’s post 204:
The first line sure seems to imply that teachers don’t understand what kids are going through. Your use of “should” in the last sentence implies that we are NOT currently doing that. Why would a kid come talk to us if this was the ideology they all held?
There are other posts, too, but I’m not going to sit here and go through each of your rants to pull out examples.
Since you’re clearly contending I’m wrong about your position, clarify for me: should kids trust their teachers to help them with bullying?
I disagree strongly, at least in the sense of how the justice system is intended to work. I think **xenophon41 **said exactly what I was thinking, so I won’t bother to repeat the same sentiment less articulately.
Over, means a repeat. So the idea was presented and then repeated. Original presentation plus the repeated presentation equals two presentations of that idea.
Over and over adds the third presentation.
You won’t find them because they are not there. It isn’t even there in post 200.
First, yes, if you are in school and being bullied, reporting the bully to your teacher is the first step.
I love how you seem to have the idea that kids are reading my posts as instructions for dealing with bullies.
So you can’t back up your claims can you?
I hardly ever punish my children, but they have to bear the consequences of their actions. Beat up someone without being able to claim justifiable self defense? Go to their house and apologize with Dad and the victim’s parents listening. Steal? Lose trust-based privileges. Lie? Ditto. Lie once more? You’re gonna be checked up and controlled quite a bit more than you appreciate. Don’t come home when told to? Lose freedom. Destroy something? Pay up out of your own hard-earned pocket money. Bully? Get some rather long-winded lessons on appropriate behavior and the meaning of empathy. That’s consequences and lessons, not punishment. Punishments like a grounding? Hardly ever, but if necessary it will be given. For deterrence. Case-irrelevant punishments like having your ass whupped? Never!
What do you believe is the motivation behind arguments for longer prison sentences, death penalties etc.? It’s revenge. But society does that for us now and as a compensation for making it illegal for you to beat up your thieving neighbor, society puts your thieving neighbor in jail for the time required for you to shut up, to not take the law in your own hands and form a lynch mob. And afterwards, we dress it all in high moral principles.
I believe in deterrence and even if I abhor the reaction, I sometimes wish for revenge. But being a law-abiding citizen, I’m satisfied with leaving that task to the judicial system (even if I can imagine cases where I would perform the revenge myself, but then I would have to be willing to take society’s punishment for that, because society has to deter me and other members of society from doing that).
And now, to return to the topic of this thread, schools should IMNSHO have a judicial system which deters bullies. And since some of those Neanderthals understand only power and uncomfortable sanctions, some of the reactions have to be downright uncomfortable for said Neanderthals. As a bonus, we (i.e. I and/or my child) get our revenge. But that’s definitely a secondary priority.
To your first point: I never said they were. I simply said the attitude you’re putting out there is a dangerous one.
To your second: you can believe whatever you want, but one of us is being logical here and the other is calling people cunts. If you think I’m a bad teacher who is condoning abuse and lying up and down this thread, so be it, but I’m really not sure what you’re trying to achieve here. Want me to change how I do things? Fine. Next time I witness a kid being bullied, tell me exactly how I should handle it, in your humble opinion.
Yikes. I just skimmed this whole thread and read the last page.
Diosa has pretty clearly articulated some major points, consisting of the fact that 1) Most teachers are decent, rational people who help students however they can 2) When they see it or are informed of it, they put the kibosh on bullying and 3) They do their best to look for bullying and 4) render each judgment/punishment/ for the bully on a case by case basis. They are NOT psychics and they DO give a shit about their kids.
Yee back in olde tymes - so, the mid 90’s - I too was bullied as a result of skipping a grade. But I never once brought it up to a teacher or to my parents yet I ALSO didn’t feel that “nobody cared”. I also (briefly) bullied a girl before I skipped a grade (when I was all sorts of popular) and later apologized to her in high school. She had obviously let go of the anger, didn’t blame adults, and was truly happy to hear my apology.
While the pain is real and significant,** Zebra**, you can’t actually imagine that people don’t care or are actively ignoring it. It’s a very unfortunate (and blatantly untrue) attitude to hold that teachers or adults simply don’t care.
Just so I’m clear, you are in fact saying that it’s ok to use a child as a means to an end?
So, if I see your child picking on another kid (and believe me, it happens-- even the little quiet kid will occasionally speak up and call their classmate “retarded” or a Neanderthal), it’s ok for me to rip them a new one in the middle of class and totally humiliate them for being so stupid as to think that was an ok course of action? If justice is proportional, do I get to call your kid a retard for saying such a thing? Where does it end then?
I don’t know about you, but that’s awfully dehumanizing in my mind- using a child as a means to an end. That’s why I try not to do it unless I feel it’s absolutely necessary.
2square4u says “corporal punishment and an eye for an eye bitches!!!111!1!1”
Code of Hammurabi up in this bitch! Holler!
I’ll allow for 2nd language difficulties, but those consequences you’ve described that you’ve imposed? Those are punishments. They’re onerous tasks, restrictions or lessons imposed by a higher authority for violation of known rules of behavior. And they were constructed by you, as I suggested previously, for the good of your children’s moral development, yes?
I’ll give you that. But arguments by populist legislators and lay persons aren’t the basis of our system of justice. Yet.
I absolutely disagree with your characterization of children who bully. This is what I meant by having to “humanize” bullies in order to deal effectively with 'em. Kids who bully run the gamut from normal-and-having-a-thoughtless-moment to seriously-fucked-up-and-need-lockup-and-therapy. But they’re all homo sapiens sapiens, not some sort of irredeemable subcreatures.
And if our flawed justice system illustrates anything, it’s that treating people as less than human makes 'em less redeemable pretty damn quickly. You really want schools to operate that way?
I think one of the causes of peoples knee jerk response to the “fisticuffs at dawn” philosophy of bullying management is that it often comes with an unspoken subtext of “it was your fault, and if you’d just grown some balls and hit someone, everything would have been fine”. After a while you start seeing that attitude when it isn’t there.
I don’t think any of the teachers at my school were sadists. Some of them did try pretty hard to help. Some of them were, as in any work place, lazy, incompetent, or just plain stupid, some of them were bullies, And yes I was mocked in front of a class by a teacher to whom I went for help. But mostly they just didn’t see what was happening.
But the other problem is that the bullied kids don’t always come across as particularly sympathetic. Like I said before, a large part of the fact that I was bullied was because I was a pretty unlikeable kid, that wasn’t my fault but it’s still true. People unconsciously respond to social cues such as confidence, mannerism, and appearance, even when dealing with children, and and they base their actions and decisions at least partially on them. These are very powerful influences and you don’t get magical immunity to them because you are a teacher. Our society also has very strong taboo’s against “grassing” on others.
So what the teacher sees is a weird whiny kid who is always telling on the other kids, mostly for piddling little stuff that happened to them dozens of times at school without them making a fuss. It doesn’t really occur to them that it might be happening to that kid dozens of times that day. The adult me could have communicated that information across, but the lack of those skills were the reason I was the target.
I don’t dwell on what happened in school, I don’t hate the kids that bullied me, because I can see why it happened. If I have hatred, it’s for our societies casual dismissal of what would be considered serious crimes against adults, when they are committed between juveniles.
Bullying between 7 year olds is one thing, but you can be damn sure that 15, 16, and 17 year olds know right from wrong. If we start calling these things assault, harassment, death threats, and GBH and treating them as such, you might be surprised at how many kids would think twice about their actions.
I don’t think Zebra’s attitude is healthy, I doubt Zebra does, but I can understand it.
Which is another good point: speaking as someone who does sit down and talk to these kids, rather than just labeling them monsters, I can tell you that a good number of them are acting out because their own lives are really fucked up. I take my mandatory reporter status very seriously, but what I will tell you is that every single time I’ve had to call CPS or the police, it’s been on a kid that was bullying other kids and, upon sitting and chatting, I discovered they were getting the shit beat out of them/ molested/ abused at home.
I suppose it is easier for me just to call them big ol’ 'tards in class, filling them with shame. But again, that doesn’t really treat the disease, does it? It treats the symptom: the acting out.
(I think you mean didn’t care and were actively ignoring it as we are talking about the past.)
It is also untrue that you can speak to my experience. I report the past to you and you do not believe me, or other posters. Jesus, you don’t believe me, an adult, now. Do you think the 8 year old zebra was treated better. Can you grasp the fucking irony that you are spewing with this argument? You are basically saying “I don’t believe you that nobody believed you.”
:smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:
According to my knowledge: no, I am not. But I’m saying that whatever reaction necessary (within the limits of human rights) for deterrence is a correct reaction. For some children, the necessary reaction is a civilized discussion in private, for other children the necessary reaction is the public reaming of a new asshole on said child. Or something inbetween. It all depends on the individual in question.
Cite, please