My children's school principal: Go to hell and burn. Slowly.

[xenophon41]

2square4u, I remain confounded over our tendency to slap categorical labels on kids (and each other).

It really is a strange proposition to believe that victims are only and exclusively victims and bullies are only and perpetually bullies. We all know as adults that this isn’t true; the asshole who cut you off in the parking lot is the same chick in Accounting who worked overtime to straighten out your vacation pay. The manager who chewed your ass for someone else’s mistake is the same one who recommended you for promotion. Make your own example; I’m betting you know plenty.

This labelling shit is the same thing they used to do with learning disabilities, too. Your kid was either “slow” or “disruptive”, and every new teacher was going to know that going in because it was in the student’s folder, right there in front.

Root causes of behavior matter. Discipline and punishment (just like “fighting back”) are possible methods of dealing with mean behavior, but they’re not exclusive remedies. DB’s already said she applies a variety of methods -including instant karma- depending on circumstances she’s aware of because she’s there with the kids. This doesn’t seem to be different from what teachers did back in the stone age when I went to school, and I’ll bet Diosa’s not doing things fundamentally differently than most other teachers.

You (the generic “you”, not exclusively 2square4u) want a magic bullet to destroy bullying in schools? Doesn’t exist. Stay on top of your school administration, participate in PTA, talk to your kids’ teachers more than once a year. And work with your kids to resist bullying any way, because they’re still going to encounter it somewhere along the line.

[Norse]

@xenophon41

2square4u, I remain confounded over our tendency to slap categorical labels on kids (and each other).

It really is a strange proposition to believe that victims are only and exclusively victims and bullies are only and perpetually bullies.

If this thread had been in GD, I’d probably be willing to cut the perpetrators some more slack. But this is the Pit, and if you (the generic “you”, not exclusively xenophon41) are thoroughly destroying another person’s life and mental health, STOP THAT SHIT RIGHT NOW! When you (the generic “you”, not exclusively xenophon41) 've quit that shit, I’m willing to get all fuzzy and feely about your situation. But first and foremost, stop. Immediately.

I won’t deny that some of the children who bully others may have problems of their own, but school administrators who are so fucking scared of upsetting piss-poor parents or just close their fucking eyes because They. Don’t. Want. To. Believe. What’s. Going. On. definitely deserve pitting.

By your logic, we shouldn’t lock up child molesters, they’ve got all those problems of their own, right? And we shouldn’t try to stop a rape, 'cause the rapist probably has these big problems himself. Right? The victim probably asked for it, after all.

[xenophon41]

@Norse

By your logic, we shouldn’t lock up child molesters, they’ve got all those problems of their own, right? And we shouldn’t try to stop a rape, 'cause the rapist probably has these big problems himself. Right? The victim probably asked for it, after all.

What part of “discipline and punishment are possible methods but not exclusive remedies” are you having trouble with? Can you stop with this fucking excluded middle nonsense?

This whole thread is about the stupid stupid school administrations not dealing with bullying effectively, but when actual teachers have reported their understanding of the problem, how they’re dealing with it and what they need from students and parents, they’re trashed by other posters who think they’re “blaming the victim.” And when I (and others) have suggested that effective strategies should include more approaches than a) victims going Walking Tall against bullies or b) teachers getting medieval on they asses, we get weepy retorts about how giving bullies ice cream parties and ponies isn’t gonna solve anything.

“Fighting ignorance” my ass.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@DiosaBellissima

So, if I see your child picking on another kid (and believe me, it happens-- even the little quiet kid will occasionally speak up and call their classmate “retarded” or a Neanderthal), it’s ok for me to rip them a new one in the middle of class and totally humiliate them for being so stupid as to think that was an ok course of action? If justice is proportional, do I get to call your kid a retard for saying such a thing?

@DiosaBellissima

I suppose it is easier for me just to call them big ol’ 'tards in class, filling them with shame.

Is there anybody who’s advocating this? I know I wasn’t. There’s a difference between immediately and publicly addressing bullying, which *can *humiliate the bully if they have any sense of shame whatsoever, and deliberately going out of your way to abuse the bully yourself and cause further humiliation.

@DiosaBellissima

Principal.

Maybe he had a strong set of ethics.

[xenophon41]

@Shot From Guns

[Quote=DiosaBellissima]

Principal.

Maybe he had a strong set of ethics.
[/quote]

Heh.

Here’s a thought for all of us: can we concede that no one is blaming victims, no one is calling for coddling or ignoring bullies, and no one is calling for summary executions of bullies by jackbooted teachers?

[Shot_From_Guns]

@xenophon41

Here’s a thought for all of us: can we concede that no one is blaming victims, no one is calling for coddling or ignoring bullies, and no one is calling for summary executions of bullies by jackbooted teachers?

No. Burn in hell, you fascict communist pagan terrorist atheist evangelical teabagger.

[xenophon41]

I’m tellin’…

(ETA: “fascict”? Sounds like a cologne by Calvin Klink.)

[Shot_From_Guns]

Mistyped it as “facsict” originally, apparently. Corrected the transposed letters in the middle but missed the c for the s at the end. Fuck you, IE, and your lack of an inline spellcheck. Fuck you, work, for forcing me into this terrible dinosaur of a browser.

[zweisamkeit]

@Zebra

No she didn’t. She totally edited and misinterpreted what I said in post 200. (which was a reply to a previous post so you should read both of those to understand what I was trying to say there)

You skimmed the thread. Did you see me doing that?

If she is going to translate my demonstration of what a victim feels, the isolation they feel and then twist the use of the word ‘nobody’ to mean teachers, she is really fucking reaching but not getting there.

I know you said you were done with this thread, Zebra, but in case you’re still reading, I have a genuinely serious point to make, here.

Remember how you said that how a person perceives a situation is their reality? I wanted to perhaps show something that Diosa said and you read it in a completely different manner than I did. So I thought it was an interesting example of how both of us have different realities of what she said.

[QUOTE=Diosa]
Well, you could be a good person too: do something to help make the lives of kids better so they don’t suffer like you did. You obviously are clearly aware of how damaging bullying can be, so do something to help. Really, I’m not being a snarky asshole either- there are plenty of kids who need help and even if you only help make one life better, you’ve made a difference.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, the first part is where she said

Well, you could be a good person too

In your reply to her, you said

I mean, “you could be a good person too”. She flat calls me a bad person.

Reading your reply, I saw that you saw Diosa’s sentence as meaning, “you could be a good person like me, if you did x,y,z to stop bullying, like I do. But you don’t, so you’re not a good person.” Is that pretty accurate?

I was really surprised to see your reply to Diosa, because I saw her sentence as meaning, “I have no clue if I’m a “better” person than you are. Because I don’t personally know you, I have no idea what kind of person you are. But for all I know, you are a good person too; based on how much you empathize with bullied kids, I would definitely lean towards that, yes.”

In other words, I did not see her as agreeing that yes, she is a better person than you. I saw her as saying that she believes she is a good person and you likely are, too (and only “likely” because she has never actually met you in person).
Diosa, would you be able to reply to this and let us both know which one (or a completely different one, for all I know :)) was your intent when you wrote that?

[Bosstone]

To be fair, I can see how Diosa’s post could be read that way:

Well, you could be a good person too: do something to help make the lives of kids better so they don’t suffer like you did.

That implies “You could be a good person if you did this.”

I still don’t think that necessarily implies “you’re not a good person now,” but more “this is something a good person might do.”

[zweisamkeit]

@Bosstone

To be fair, I can see how Diosa’s post could be read that way:That implies “You could be a good person if you did this.”

I still don’t think that necessarily implies “you’re not a good person now,” but more “this is something a good person might do.”

Which is why I want her to get her butt in here and clarify!

[xenophon41]

To be really fair, Diosa’s comment was in reply to this post:

@Zebra

nope, you’re not arguing with me, just making snarky comments about me and getting positive reinforcement from your cheering section.

Wow, you really are such a better person than me.

I’m going to take a bottle and a nap now cause I’m a little baby.

In context, the response Zebra got was quite gentle, even if one interprets it as an insult, which is a stretch. Particularly in comparison to Zebra’s classy bon mots just a few posts before that one.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@zweisamkeit

I was really surprised to see your reply to Diosa, because I saw her sentence as meaning, “I have no clue if I’m a “better” person than you are. Because I don’t personally know you, I have no idea what kind of person you are. But for all I know, you are a good person too; based on how much you empathize with bullied kids, I would definitely lean towards that, yes.”

I appreciate that you’re trying to help, but my reading of that same sentence is that it’s pretty clear that **Diosa **was giving instructions: “**Zebra ***should *do these things, which are useful, instead of bitching at people on a message board, which is not.” Which makes sense as a reply to the post that **xenophon41 **cited.

[zweisamkeit]

@Shot_From_Guns

I appreciate that you’re trying to help, but my reading of that same sentence is that it’s pretty clear that **Diosa **was giving instructions: “**Zebra ***should *do these things, which are useful, instead of bitching at people on a message board, which is not.” Which makes sense as a reply to the post that **xenophon41 **cited.

And it’s pretty clear to me that it wasn’t. That’s kind of my entire point.

[Shot_From_Guns]

If she’d meant “you might be” instead of “you have the capacity to be,” she’d be using a different form of the verb to do: it would be “do[ing] something to help make the lives of kids better so they don’t suffer like you did.” This is further reinforced by the next sentence: “You obviously are clearly aware of how damaging bullying can be, so do something to help.” That’s clearly command form.

[DiosaBellissima]

@zweisamkeit

I was really surprised to see your reply to Diosa, because I saw her sentence as meaning, “I have no clue if I’m a “better” person than you are. Because I don’t personally know you, I have no idea what kind of person you are. But for all I know, you are a good person too; based on how much you empathize with bullied kids, I would definitely lean towards that, yes.”

In other words, I did not see her as agreeing that yes, she is a better person than you. I saw her as saying that she believes she is a good person and you likely are, too (and only “likely” because she has never actually met you in person).
Diosa, would you be able to reply to this and let us both know which one (or a completely different one, for all I know :)) was your intent when you wrote that?

@Shot_From_Guns

I appreciate that you’re trying to help, but my reading of that same sentence is that it’s pretty clear that **Diosa **was giving instructions: “**Zebra ***should *do these things, which are useful, instead of bitching at people on a message board, which is not.” Which makes sense as a reply to the post that **xenophon41 **cited.

I meant it entirely how zweisamkeit is saying. I’d babble more, but she summed it up better than I originally did, apparently. Sorry for the confusion for the rest of you. You’re, of course, welcome to not believe me and pick apart my verb usage, but I definitely meant it the way zweisamkeit is saying.

[Shot_From_Guns]

Then you need to stop using the command forms of verbs when you’re really trying to say, “I suppose this might be how you are” instead of “this is what I think you should do.” Seriously, how is this even up for discussion?

[DiosaBellissima]

@Shot_From_Guns

Then you need to stop using the command forms of verbs when you’re really trying to say, “I suppose this might be how you are” instead of “this is what I think you should do.” Seriously, how is this even up for discussion?

Wait, are you commanding me to stop commanding people to do things? Meta.

[Acid_Lamp]

Quit this nerd talk or it’s wedgies all around…

[Shot_From_Guns]

@DiosaBellissima

Wait, are you commanding me to stop commanding people to do things? Meta.

Only when you don’t want to give the impression that you’re telling someone that this is what they should do, with the implication that they’re not already doing it.