read my sig.
Patriotism is weird.
I think one of the problems with foreigners and our attitude to the US is that we see a lot of your patriotism on our media, perhaps to an unrepresentative degree. Couple that with the whole superlative thing: putting “-est” on the end of adjectives to describe the US, and it can be a bit wearing. I’ll allow you “richest” and “most powerful ever”, but a lot of the other claims are not necessarily supported: the US doesn’t have a global monopoly on many of the things that are lauded as “-est” by patriotic US citizens.
And accusations of “sour grapes” really stick in one’s throat: as has been said, most people have an affinity for the place they’re from, warts and all.
Another thing that weirds me out is, if you look at the threads about, say, Ireland or the UK, you’ll find from time to time excoriating criticism of those countries, their populations, and their governments from their own residents, but you rarely, if ever, find threads saying “let’s be nice about _______”.
Patriotism is weird.
Having said that, America is an amazing place. I spent much of my childhood in Texas, have travelled to and across your great nation countless times. I’ve lived and worked in the US. I’ve travelled from coast to coast, and have visited each of the 48 contiguous states. Half my immediate family lives there, because of the opportunities that the country offers. Can’t stand your president, and I think it’s probably a shit place to live if you’re poor, but the country is simply staggering.
It all depends on how you define “free”. Look at this:
In Sweden, if my employer wants to fire me, he has to have a good reason to do so, or I get my job back. Also, I have a period (two months, in my particular case) during which I keep working after he’s said he’ll fire me.
In the US, if my employer wants to fire me, he can do so for any reason except age, race and sex, and he can fire me right now.
To the employer, Sweden is definitely less free. To me as the employee, the US is less free.
No, i´m not starting a thread about “how much I like my country”. Yes, everybody loves more or less the place where they grown up. And yes there´s lots of thing that could be improved in my country (our government, for starters, what abunch of jerks). I sense (correct me if I´m wrong) that some (a lot) of US people think tehir the only country where you can be free (somebody in this thread said that freedom sacres people). In 1700 the king of Sapin (and many other countries in Europe) had absolute power, while in US there was a democracy going on, right?
I´m not going to talk about how many times the US supported dictators and aided to destroy real democracies aorund the world, because this is not the point right now.
Also, I don´t blame US people and if I wouldn´t liked at all your country I wouldn´t be paying a visit next year, right?
Actually, I think Holland is the best country on earth. I’d almost wish that I were Dutch, except that Coldfire comes from there, which unfortunately pulls it right back down to the level of everyone else.
I’ve been to the States. You’re not so hot 
pan
Uhm…maybe I’m misremembering, but when I was born in 1964 wasn’t Spain this horrible fascist dictatorship? I’m glad the King and the society seem to have turned things around, but…how free can a society with such a legacy be? Wouldn’t the lingering fear and caution inhibit everyone over a certain age, since they needed it to survive all through their younger lives?
I was also astonished to learn that in some countries the simple act of hanging your country’s flag in the window is seen as some sort of right-wing statement. America is such a diverse nation–we don’t share one religion, one race, one set of morals like other countries–that this symbol is a very useful shorthand to express that you’re just happy about being here. The immigrants I saw pouring out of Faneuil Hall waving their little flags after being sworn in as citizens weren’t expressing Republicanism or support of the death penalty or anything, there were just glad that they were now fully part of the civitas.
Holland and the rest of Europe sound cool, though. Life seems so easy and carefree!
Well, seen by some, certainly. In Sweden, it basically got started like this:
-
Right-wing anti-immigration types use the Swedish flag as a symbol.
-
Scaredy-cat left-wing immigration supporters see that and deduce that the Swedish flag is a right-wing anti-immigration symbol.
-
Said scaredy-cat left-wing immigration supporters try to restrict the use of the flag, ban the National Anthem et cetera.
-
Vaguely patriotic couch potatoes see the left-wingers opposing the flag and the right-wingers using it, and deduce that the right-wingers must be right. After all, they’re patriotic.
-
Vaguely patriotic couch potatoes end up opposing immigration.
As for me, being violently in favour of immigration and decidedly left-wing, people can use the flag, show the flag, wear the flag, walk on the flag, wipe their delicate parts with the flag or smoke the flag for all I care. Symbols mean nothing.
…or being black. Or being gay.:dubious:
Gaspode: Shaw was full of it. Patriotism is my conviction that this country is superior to all other countries, period. My being born here was the result of a number of my ancestors leaving where they were and making it here, over God-knows-what obstacles, and I give thanks that they did. I’m thankful to be in a nation where I am free to do my utmost to contribute to the greatest capitalist democracy in the world. It’s these contributions that I’m proud of.
We have some of the wealthiest poor people on earth. You can gripe about that being relative, but we that are half a paycheck away from homelessness still have it pretty good.
My patriotism comes from seeing the alternative - I spent a few days in East Germany once and seeing life under one of the most evil, oppressive, totalitarian systems ever constructed me appreciative every day for the freedoms I enjoy. And I was cheering hard when that Wall came down eight months later.
Right,
[rolls up sleeves and perches imaginary glasses on bridge of nose]
While I certainly don’t claim to speak for all Brits, I think I can safely say that a good number of them will share my views.
We don’t hate America, ok? I’ve worked in Texas and went to an American high-school here in the UK. I spent my formative years being surrounded by Americans and American traditions. I have a class ring (somewhere), had yearbooks, had pep rallys. I went to two senior proms - jeez, our school teams were called the Cougars and we had cheerleaders and a mascot. I still call petrol “gas” and love peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches.
So I don’t hate Americans. I have no problem whatsoever with Americans, on the whole, the one’s I’ve met have been decent and affable people and have always treated me with kindness. (except for those jock assholes in eighth grade - god I hated them!).
What I do hate is the US Government. I hate Bush, I hate US Foreign Policy, I hate the lies and the hypocrisy and the double-standards. Most of all, however, I hate the Administration’s arrogance and “fuck-you attitude” towards the rest of the world. These guys are definitely not doing you any favours.
Yes, you may enjoy freedom of speech and a good standard of living, but so do many other countries in the world, so the US certainly isn’t special in that regard. And yes, you may enjoy good standards of education and health and you might not be starving to death, but again, many other countries enjoy the same things. So what has the US got that nobody else has (apart from the most money and the biggest military)?
So please understand that when we criticise the US, we’re not targetting you personally, or your family or Joe Schmoe Burger-Flipper. We’re criticising the evil bastards who rule in your name.
I hope that’s clear.
Well, that’s dumb too. The difference is that black and gay people have at various times been made to feel ashamed of their black/gayness, so pride is a counteraction.
But I’ll certainly say that taking pride in being black or gay is… like Miller, I hesitate to use the word “stupid”. Certainly weird. Being happy to be black or gay, sure, but proud?
Chicago is a very nice town with lots of things to do and nice places to eat and/or get drunk. It is also the home of the Straight Dope, so your trip will be something like a pilgrimage. If you are still a member here (and you know you will be–it’s a hard habit to break) we could even arrange a Dopefest at the same time as your visit. 
For me, while I am quite fond of the US, there are other countries I could live in perfectly happily, especially if (proving I’m a True American) I didn’t have to learn another language. Canada, Ireland, and Great Britain come to mind.
jjimm,
interesting article on BBC yesterday abt patriotism and such.
have a read
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2970424.stm
Do you have any data to indicate this - especially versus other Western democracies?
I am a patriotic person, but I am not a nationalist.
I believe there is a fine line between the two, and the arguments I have been following are caused because both of the concepts I mentioned are defined by “patriotism”.
I am a Turkish citizen. I have reasons to be proud of being one. And I have reasons to be " not so proud" of being one. (Which, I believe, is also the case for everybody who has posted anything here.)
I am patriotic because I believe my country, or my nation is inferior to none in the world, and I would never accept being treated as inferior to anybody. I must have my liberty - my sovereignty to live under my own flag - whatever that might amount to… And I will work as hard as I can, give as much as I can for the good of the people I live with…
I am not a nationalist, and nobody can make me say my country or my nation is superior to any other. We are all equal and we all have to share the same planet with 6 billion people.
Oppression, hypocricy, etc… are a danger, and nobody in the world deserves to be faced with them, wherever they may be coming from. And other than that I see nothing wrong with people being happy and proud to be a member of a country/nation , whichever nation it may be…
As long as there is no hostility against anybody else in that pride!!
Now, it’s this facile nonsense that we find strange. You live in a western liberal democracy. So do I. I have more or less the same freedoms and responsibilities as you do. I quite like my country. In fact, I think it’s great. But I don’t use the superlative. I have no idea whether my country is greater than any other, certainly not any other western liberal democracy. I don’t even know how I would go about determining whether one country is greater than another. Even if, in my heart of hearts I harboured a belief that my country was the greatest on earth (it’s nice and green and everything), why would I feel the need to proclaim it to the world?
Odd, very, very odd.
My God, Bibliovore! You’re an American in a European’s body!
Yes, the fucknig bastard died in 1975. Those were some darka days, but we made a peaceful (this means, without war or revolution) transition to democracy and it´s been so since then. Whe have a Constitution since 1978 and is a very progressist one. We survived a takeover attempt in 1981…
In some ways Spain is unregonizeable. We have changed a lot and have made a lot of progresses, of that I´m proud. There is no way to go back t those dark times, it´s impossible by now.
We are now a modern country, yet we have so much work to do (France, Germany an UK are still ahead of us in some subjects), but we´re managing quite well.
You take that back!
A list of places I woul like to visit in US:
-Seattle
-New York
-Chicago (of course)
-Los Angeles
-Macon, Georgia (just kidding)
And for US dopers, it´s okay to be proud of your contry, no problem there. But, could you give me a further insight (whow!, I love how it sounds, further insight, further insight…) in the matter (further insight!) “US really rocks”? I mean (further insight!!!) what are the things you like most of your country? what do you think that makes it so special?
(further insight!!!)
I’m with manwithaplan. It’s the proclaiming to all and sundry that yours is the best at this, that and the other that we find so… obnoxious. Especially when something like 90% of you don’t even have a bleedin’ passport, let alone the means to have been to other liberal western democracy to check out these claims.
By all means state what a great place it is. I might even agree with you. But claiming all of these “bests” just makes you sound silly.
pan